Leadership as "Authenticity"

[David CO]

9 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

It is, however, your decision to participate.

Not really.  It is the Chartered Organization's decision to participate.  The IH must go along with that decision.  All other scouters get to choose.  Not so for the 
IH.  

 

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

Not really.  It is the Chartered Organization's decision to participate.  The IH must go along with that decision.  All other scouters get to choose.  Not so for the 
IH.

Are you the IH? The COR? (I don't know if CO in your name is for Colorado or Chartered Organization).

Either way, at some point or another, you signed the application that included explicitly or by reference the items I noted. You either signed knowing you were going to violate those provisions anyway or signed not knowing.

As I said, I personally would not sign something where on my honor I "Affirm" and "Certify" that I will comply with BSA's rules knowing I had no intention on doing so.

But that's just me I guess.

[David CO]

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Are you the IH? The COR? (I don't know if CO in your name is for Colorado or Chartered Organization).

I am retired now.  I was an IH.  The CO (in David CO) is for Chartered Organization.

I joined the forum, years ago, because I felt the viewpoint of the Chartered Organization was under-represented here.  The scouter viewpoint is abundant.  The council viewpoint is here, often quoted by scouters and executives alike.  But the CO's viewpoint is largely missing. 

[CynicalScouter]

15 minutes ago, David CO said:

I am retired now.  I was an IH.  The CO (in David CO) is for Chartered Organization.

I joined the forum, years ago, because I felt the viewpoint of the Chartered Organization was under-represented here.  The scouter viewpoint is abundant.  The council viewpoint is here, often quoted by scouters and executives alike.  But the CO's viewpoint is largely missing. 

Then as COR (and possibly IH) you would have had to have signed that Adult Leader Application that includes that you "certify" and "affirm" you would comply with BSA's rules.

If you were able in your heart of hearts able to sign that knowing you were going to disobey it anyway, well,  ok for you I guess.

I know I couldn't sign something/"Affirm" or "Certify" something that wasn't true, but OK.

EDIT: The Charter Organization Agreement which as IH or CO (or both) you would have had to have signed also provides

Quote

The Chartered Organization agrees to...Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies.

 Again, if you were able in your heart of hearts able to sign that knowing you were going to disobey "BSA rules, regulations, and policies" anyway, well,  ok for you I guess.

Edited October 5, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

It is easy for scouters to criticize the CO for not abiding by the charter agreement.  But these same scouters would probably be the ones who scream the loudest if their CO's were to choose to follow their consciences and not sign the charter. 

 

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

It is easy for scouters to criticize the CO for not abiding by the charter agreement.  But these same scouters would probably be the ones who scream the loudest if their CO's were to choose to follow their consciences and not sign the charter.

No, it is real, real simple (to me at least). Don't be the CO.

As CO you are bound in three ways to comply with BSA's rules:

1) The Adult Application

Quote

I hereby certify that I agree to comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA and the local council, including the Scouter Code of Conduct.

2) The Scouter Code of Conduct

Quote

I will respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training,

3) The Charter Organization Agreement

Quote

The Chartered Organization agrees to...Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies.

If I decided at the outset that I was not going to "comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA" or "abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training" or "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies" I simply would have decline to be the CO.

I would NOT have signed and affirmed all those documents knowing I had no intention to "comply", "abide" and "conduct" myself accordingly.

But as I said, that's just me.

[CynicalScouter]

And to get back to "authenticity", I find a lack of "authenticity" in Scouters/Scout Leaders who sign and affirm statements that they will

• "comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA" or
• "abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training" or
• "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies"

(as it pertains to things like, I don't know, fundraising)

And then proceed to NOT comply, NOT abide, and NOT conduct themselves accordingly.

But I guess that's just me since it appears many (most?) here are perfectly OK with saying/signing/affirming knowing they will not in fact do so for "reasons".

[fred8033]

We should tone down.  

The CO / BSA relationship is not a perfect marriage.  It's a Venn diagram.  There are things that BSA supports and the CO can't and vice versa.  The program works in the common center.    ... For example, paintball.  Probably okay for many COs, but not BSA.  As such, paint ball should not be part of the scouting program in that CO.  I'm sure we can apply the same common center approach for many things from activates to safety to advancement to membership.  

For me, Guide To Safe Scouting is most difficult for me with laser tag.  BUT, on the other hand, I am extremely hesitant with other things such as canoe trips.  I've had my young sons on long river canoe trips with me.  BUT, I would not take a 4th grade Cub Scout den on a river canoe trip even if it's hosted by a local state park and I view it as reasonably safe.  The key point is GTSS says no and I don't want to accept the liability if something happened as I've already been told it's not acceptable.  

[David CO]

7 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

The CO / BSA relationship is not a perfect marriage.  It's a Venn diagram.  There are things that BSA supports and the CO can't and vice versa.  The program works in the common center. 

Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you about the Venn diagram.  Not anymore.  The YP rules are being applied to scouters 24/7.  No distinction is being made between scouting events, CO events, and a scouter's private life.  There is no Venn diagram anymore.

 

[carebear3895]

13 minutes ago, David CO said:

 The YP rules are being applied to scouters 24/7. 

 

you say this like it's a bad thing?

[qwazse]

10 minutes ago, David CO said:

Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you about the Venn diagram.  Not anymore.  The YP rules are being applied to scouters 24/7.  No distinction is being made between scouting events, CO events, and a scouter's private life.  There is no Venn diagram anymore.

I'm certain that our litigious society has forced BSA into a position of pervading events and activities even obliquely related to the unit.

It has most certainly cost them membership.

Why? Because taking "scout" from its source (in military espionage) and authentically applying it to youth we get a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates.

In other words, one finds himself to be an authentic boy scout (girls, no exception) when one calls on a half-dozen friends, makes a sound plan, communicates it to a thoughtful and caring adult - who admiringly approves, and executes it. Observing and, subsequently reporting.

[David CO]

16 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

you say this like it's a bad thing?

I do.  It is.

[yknot]

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you about the Venn diagram.  Not anymore.  The YP rules are being applied to scouters 24/7.  No distinction is being made between scouting events, CO events, and a scouter's private life.  There is no Venn diagram anymore.

 

While I am generally a rule follower, given what BSA is, I think some degree of interpretation is involved. Some of these BSA policies that seem so outrageous, like attempting to dictate what a leader does on his or her own time with their own children, are really there to give BSA plausible deniability for liability reasons.  They know most leaders are not going to tolerate being told they can no longer take their kids and friends to the movies. But, if something happens, they want to be able to say you were not following BSA policy. Although the headline will still say "Boy Scout Leader Charged in..."

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

A Scout is Obedient. Question the rule? Sure. But violate deliberately? Nope. It is rank hypocrisy to tell scouts they have to obey rules, but Scouters don't.

Leaders need to understand their role as team member as well. 

• A patrol leader leads a patrol. A patrol leader is also a member of the PLC which is led by the SPL.  
• A Scoutmaster leads the Assistant Scoutmasters, but also is a member of the team led by the Committee Chair
• A Troop Committee Chair leads the volunteer adults of the troop, but also is a member of the team led by the COR.

Leaders also need to understand how to balance the goals of the team they lead with the goals of the team they are on:

• A patrol leader will recognize when the patrol is burning out and have to balance that against the SPL's wish for the Troop to be ready for the morning flag ceremony at 7:00am.
• A Scoutmaster will want to purchase new tents for the troop, but recognize that the Troop Committee sees the needs to conserve funds in an effort to keep dues down.

Leaders will also need to understand how to balance external commitments with the needs of the team

• A troop is a part of the CO, but has agreed to follow certain Scouting rules per the Chartered Organization Agreement.

As a leader grows in their role, they will undoubtedly run into conflicting circumstances to deal with:

• The troop really needs new tents to keep the Scouts warm and dry in a storm, the Troop Committee has determined there is no money, and the BSA says you cannot solicit donations of new tents.  How does the Scoutmaster resolve that?

How one deals with these conflicting circumstances defines them as a leader.  Some leaders will choose to side with their team.  Some leaders will look to guidance and direction from the team they are in.  There are lots of factors that influence this.

Obey?

Myself - I cringe when I hear terms like obey.  I have never believed that my role as a leader means I simply do whatever my "leader" tells me to do.  My job as a leader is to understand all the different factors and then weigh them in the context of the goals of my team.  Often this means I have to go to my "leader" and negotiate.  That's part of my job as a leader is to figure out when I follow and when I "negotiate".  

[CynicalScouter]

26 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Obey?

Myself - I cringe when I hear terms like obey.

So, we amend the Scout Law

Quote

A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Got it.