Leadership as "Authenticity"

[CynicalScouter]

  On 10/6/2020 at 8:37 PM, fred8033 said:

 A member organization not welcoming leaders from the same organization is also a red flag.

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Exactly. Could indicate that they know they are doing something wrong.

A well run unit should welcome scouts and scouters from other units.

But then again, see what @David CO had to say about that.

  On 10/6/2020 at 6:48 PM, David CO said:

It's true that we don't want our kids to go to school with your kids.  It is also true that we don't want our scouts to go camping with your scouts.

I just want you to leave us alone.  

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That simply scares me for the sake of the scouts in his unit.

[David CO]

  On 10/6/2020 at 8:37 PM, fred8033 said:

It's from training that teaches warning signs.  For example, an adult touching the hair of a non-related child is a red flag. 

A member organization not welcoming leaders from the same organization is also a red flag.  It does scare me.  What are they hiding?  What's the concern?  

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Oh.  I get it now.  You're making this a sexual thing.  It sure didn't take you guys long to find the low road.  This is about as low as it gets.

 

[RememberSchiff]

Ahem...let's focus our discussion here on interacting with fellow scouters including professionals who show up "in your house" (meeting place, campsite, activity) either suddenly or invited. Friendly visit, unwanted interruption? Unasked for advice or criticism? Too busy. Can't get past disagreements? Showing scouts how to get along?

So as @evmori might say, how about a warm slice of pie with your coffee. We are fresh out of sour apple, but we have pumpkin and blueberry. 

 

@MattR @John-in-KC

Edited October 6, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[David CO]

  On 10/6/2020 at 10:55 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Ahem...

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Was that a cough?  EEK!  COVID ALERT....COVID ALERT....COVID ALERT.   Shut down the screen!  Disinfect the keyboard!

[David CO]

  On 10/6/2020 at 10:55 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Ahem...let's focus our discussion here on interacting with fellow scouters including professionals who show up "in your house" (meeting place, campsite, activity) either suddenly or invited.

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Let's start with food.  An open meeting is not an open dinner invitation.  If the scout leaders buy pizza for the boys, it is not acceptable for visitors/observers to help themselves to a slice.  

 

[RememberSchiff]

  On 10/6/2020 at 11:38 PM, David CO said:

Let's start with food.  An open meeting is not an open dinner invitation.  If the scout leaders buy pizza for the boys, it is not acceptable for visitors/observers to help themselves to a slice.  

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Ah an awkward situation...good opportunity for scouts to develop courteous behavior. Even before, ahem, covid we scouters have tried to draw visitors away from scouts eating. 

That said, some of our scouts will preemptively and courteously ask an under-nourished DE if he would like a slice.  We like that. Have visitors still helped themselves? Yeah. Do they then talk while they are eating our pizza? Yeah. We don't like that. 

[David CO]

  On 10/6/2020 at 11:57 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Ah an awkward situation...

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Not so awkward.  When I was an Athletic Director, it was clearly understood that I would not join the teams for pizza or snacks unless I was invited.  I was the supervisor.  I wasn't their automatic dinner guest.  

I would never think of walking into the stands and grabbing a handful of popcorn from a spectator's bag.  So why would I invite myself to eat the team's pizza?  I can't even imagine myself doing something like that.  Our summer home was a converted barn.  So I guess I actually was raised in a barn.  But I learned better manners than to help myself to other people's food.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by David CO

[RememberSchiff]

"I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it." Captain Woodrow Call Lonesome Dove

Tolerance, Courtesy, Kindness, Authenticity... The important point is that authentic behavior does not reflect a compulsion to be one’s true self, but rather the choice to express one’s true feelings, motives, and inclinations.

http://psychology.iresearchnet.com/social-psychology/control/authenticity/

So how should scouts express their real feelings towards a patrol member or a visitor who stole their oreos? The usual immediate unscoutlike remarks and then shunning? Or do we say "Not cool" and work a remedy?

Awhile ago, our PLC (minus PL's) came up with a brilliant idea. They would not cook on campouts. They would pillage, ahem sample other patrols cooking for quality control purposes...whether invited or not. Eventually our scouts worked it out and scout manners prevailed.

Edited October 7, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[David CO]

  On 10/7/2020 at 1:23 AM, RememberSchiff said:

So how should scouts express their real feelings towards a patrol member or a visitor who stole their Oreos?

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How did Captain Woodrow Call handle it?

[RememberSchiff]

  On 10/7/2020 at 1:28 AM, David CO said:

How did Captain Woodrow Call handle it?

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In the 1870's before Boy Scouts and Oreos, physically. I doubt the transgressor would be eating for some time.

Now 2020, how should Scouts handle it?

 

[CynicalScouter]

  On 10/6/2020 at 10:55 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Ahem...let's focus our discussion here on interacting with fellow scouters including professionals who show up "in your house" (meeting place, campsite, activity) either suddenly or invited. Friendly visit, unwanted interruption? Unasked for advice or criticism? Too busy. Can't get past disagreements? Showing scouts how to get along?

So as @evmori might say, how about a warm slice of pie with your coffee. We are fresh out of sour apple, but we have pumpkin and blueberry. 

 

@MattR @John-in-KC

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We have had it happen. I will tell you that we were not openly hostile, mean spirited, and yes we did offer them a cup of coffee.

My unit welcomes anyone and everyone. We have nothing to hide. We don't tell young people or adults "we don't want our kids to go to school with your kids.  We don't want our scouts to go camping with your scouts. We just want you to leave us alone."

A scout if kind, courteous, and friendly.

So are scouters (or they should be).

[RememberSchiff]

Yeah, we always camped the same July week at our council camp and every summer we had the same problems with the same troop. Instead of a troop number, I'll call them the Hooligans and their scoutmaster was Mr Bo Willbe Boyce.

There was no reasoning with them even over coffee. Every 10am Scoutmaster meeting, the number 1 topic was the "Hooligans" - trip wires, saran wrap over toilets,  missing stolen items , you didn't want to be on the waterfront at the same time as them. The Camp Director Mr. Noah Confront and SE Mr. Iafeela Yurpane failed to act.

We scheduled an August camp week which was less convenient for our families so our scout attendance dropped. The problem was not solved just avoided. 

So it is may not be an issue of hiding (you are suspect), it may be an issue of avoiding (the visitor is suspect). 

Edited October 7, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[David CO]

  On 10/7/2020 at 12:19 PM, RememberSchiff said:

So it is may not be an issue of hiding, it may be an issue of avoiding.  

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Just about every movie about youth camping glorifies bad behavior.  Many kids come to camp thinking this is the way it is supposed to be.  They don't think they're misbehaving.  They think it is a right of passage.  The Hooligans probably don't think they are doing anything wrong.

It is the same at their public school, Hooligan Jr. High.  They don't think constantly disrupting class is misbehavior.  They don't think they're badly behaved.  Their parents don't think they're badly behaved.  This is the expected behavior at Hooligan Jr. High.  It is a part of the school culture.

[CynicalScouter]

  On 10/7/2020 at 1:27 PM, David CO said:

It is the same at their public school, Hooligan Jr. High.  They don't think constantly disrupting class is misbehavior.  They don't think they're badly behaved.  Their parents don't think they're badly behaved.  This is the expected behavior at Hooligan Jr. High.  It is a part of the school culture.

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Stereotype much?

Most of the young men in my unit are public school educated. They are disciplined, intelligent, and compassionate.

Sorry that not all of us can afford Catholic School.

Is this why you said

 

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19 hours ago, David CO said:

It's true that we don't want our kids to go to school with your kids.  It is also true that we don't want our scouts to go camping with your scouts.

I just want you to leave us alone.  

 

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Because these young men can't afford catholic school?

Edited October 7, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[fred8033]

  On 10/6/2020 at 9:49 PM, David CO said:

Oh.  I get it now.  You're making this a sexual thing.  It sure didn't take you guys long to find the low road.  This is about as low as it gets.

 

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No.  It's not a sexual thing. 

I used the analogy.  ... As with YPT where I've been taught to look for signs, there are other signs for other issues.  The question is why would anyone not welcome people from the same organization to see what they are doing.  That's a red flag for a group that is going a different direction and perhaps a direction that contradicts fundamental assumptions / directions/ guidance.

Heck, as a parent, my kids can do certain specific things that raises red flags and makes me more alert.

Edited October 7, 2020 by fred8033