Leadership as "Authenticity"

[ParkMan]

40 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

you say this like it's a bad thing?

You have to put the YTP 24/7 rules into context.

A primary goal the BSA at the national level is to reduce issues of child abuse in their membership as low as possible.  With that in mind, it makes sense for the BSA to have very aggressive YPT rules.  The primary goal of most volunteers is to raise their children.  So when this goal of the BSA conflicts with the goal of parent volunteers, parents are going to react in different ways.  Again, some will side with the BSA, some will side with their children's needs.  

It stinks that this creates situations where we have to choose between the BSA and our own children, but it's reality.  In this case the BSA chose to prioritize youth protection above the needs of it's volunteer leaders.

Does it mean that it was wrong for the BSA to make this choice?  In my mind, it does not.  Given the obvious history we are all aware of, the BSA taking a very proactive approach makes sense.    Does it mean that we all suffer and struggle because of it - yes, it does.  But, in my mind the BSA made the right priority call.  It is, in a sense, being a leader here.  Regardless of the difficulty of that decision, the BSA is putting kids first.  Perhaps someday the BSA will realize that this level of protection isn't necessary and will tone it down - but that day is not today.

[David CO]

18 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

It stinks that this creates situations where we have to choose between the BSA and our own children, but it's reality. 

That's a no-brainer.  I will always choose my children over BSA.

[RememberSchiff]

28 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

So, we amend the Scout Law

Got it.

I think so, as OBEDIENT is being misunderstood as an absolute. For example, in YP we teach scouts to say no to an abuser, even if he/she is an adult leader.

I would prefer VIGILANT replace it. Updating the Scout Law is worth an other topic or two in itself. 

Another $0.02,

[ParkMan]

39 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

So, we amend the Scout Law

Got it.

That's too simplistic.  The best leaders I know do not blindly obey every rule and directive - they balance the needs of their team or organization against what is being asked of them. 

The mark of a strong leader is that they balance the needs of the organization that they are in with the needs of the team that they lead.  They then make good decisions as a leader based on that information.  I will take a leader with these sort of critical thinking skills any day over someone who simply just blindly obeys a command. 

Let's remember that obedient is but one point in the Scout Law.  There are other places in the BSA's guiding materials talk about developing leaders. 

Quote

VISION STATEMENT

The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law.

THE AIMS AND METHODS OF SCOUTING

The Scouting program has specific objectives, commonly referred to as the “Aims of Scouting.” They are character development, leadership development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Leadership development is also one of Scoutings eight methods contributing to both good character and good citizenship.

The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below [...]

Leadership Development – The Scouting program encourages Scouts to learn and practice leadership skills. Every Scout has the opportunity to participate in both shared and total leadership situations. Understanding the concepts of leadership and becoming a servant leader helps a Scout accept the leadership role of others and guides them towards participating citizenship and character development.

Our role as leaders in the program is to interpret these to the best of our own abilities.  I looked at these other items and recognized that I have to use some context when interpreting obedient.

Edited October 5, 2020 by ParkMan
grammer

[ParkMan]

7 minutes ago, David CO said:

That's a no-brainer.  I will always choose my children over BSA.

Yep - I think this is true of most parents.

I also don't fault the BSA from trying to be a leader in setting this rule.  Look at how much more awareness and though this topic gets because of the high bar the BSA set.  They have created much discussion on this subject - a good thing.

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I think so, as OBEDIENT is being misunderstood as an absolute...I would prefer VIGILANT replace it.

I agree with this. There's nuance in the moment.

What I disagree with is where adult leaders who have plenty of time to think about it, claim "authenticity", but then proceed to sign up for BSA and knowingly decided at the outset that they were not going to "comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA" or "abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training" or "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies."

[carebear3895]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I do.  It is.

Imagine being so cynical towards the BSA, you hate rules that are put in place that are meant to protect children.

Wild. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by carebear3895
spelling

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

Imagine being so cynical towards rhe BSA, you hate rules that are put in place that are meant to protect children.

Wild. 

But don't you know? You don't have to obey BSA rules even if you agree to them by signing up if they get in your way! Just do what you want, there's no rules other than what you/your CO wants. You don't have to "comply", "abide" and/or "conduct" yourself according to BSA rules because BSA National is bad!

You just run your scouting program the way YOU want. Who cares what National says?

/sarcasm

Edited October 5, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[Eagledad]

The discussion has been misdirected (hijacked?) toward silliness when posters find themselves defending against absolutes of good leadership or character.

I have watched and participated in enough discussions here to know who has integrity with their posts contributions. Authenticity and integrity are more a measure of principles, not the right or wrong of one decision or idealism.

Barry

[walk in the woods]

4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

But don't you know? You don't have to obey BSA rules even if you agree to them by signing up if they get in your way! Just do what you want, there's no rules other than what you/your CO wants. You don't have to "comply", "abide" and/or "conduct" yourself according to BSA rules because BSA National is bad!

You just run your scouting program the way YOU want. Who cares what National says?

/sarcasm

Like when the GNY Council hired Pascal Tessier in violation of then current membership standards?  It was a clear violation of the regulations and BSA national did nothing.  Agree or disagree with the decision, the BSA showed they don't have the courage to enforce their own rules therefore the rules are meaningless.  Never give an order you know will be disobeyed if you don't have the courage to enforce it.  

[CynicalScouter]

18 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Authenticity and integrity are more a measure of principles, not the right or wrong of one decision or idealism.

Here here! I totally agree. Authenticity and integrity are key leadership ingredients. Absolutely.

That is why I look for leaders who do what they say they will do. For example, if they certify and affirm that they will "comply", "abide" and/or "conduct" themselves according to BSA rules, I darn will expect them to do so.

I stand for the principle that people should do what they say they will do.

Of course, staying true to your word/signature/affirmation seems to be out of fashion...

So, from the original post

On 10/3/2020 at 1:18 AM, fred8033 said:

People see authenticity as sincerity, honesty, and integrity....Ensure that your words are consistent with your deeds.  aka ... practice what you preach

 

Is it "honesty" to sign/affirm/certify that I will "comply", "abide" and/or "conduct" myself in accordance with BSA rules even if I have every intention on disobeying them if they get in my way (fundraising, YPT, Guide to Safe Scouting)?

Am I "practicing what you preach" if I encourage scouts to be "trustworthy, "obedient", and "honest" and then sign/affirm/certify that I will "comply", "abide" and/or "conduct" myself in accordance with BSA rules even if I have every intention on disobeying if they they get in my way (fundraising, YPT, Guide to Safe Scouting)?

Are my "words are consistent with your deeds" is I sign/affirm/certify that I will "comply", "abide" and/or "conduct" myself in accordance with BSA rules even if I have every intention on disobeying them if they get in my way (fundraising, YPT, Guide to Safe Scouting)?

I don't think so, but that's just me.

Edited October 5, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[JoeBob]

@CynicalScouter, I think the High Horse you rode in on is ready to leave...

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

@CynicalScouter, I think the High Horse you rode in on is ready to leave...

True. I think my point's been made.

[ParkMan]

21 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

But don't you know? You don't have to obey BSA rules even if you agree to them by signing up if they get in your way! Just do what you want, there's no rules other than what you/your CO wants. You don't have to "comply", "abide" and/or "conduct" yourself according to BSA rules because BSA National is bad!

You just run your scouting program the way YOU want. Who cares what National says?

/sarcasm

I'm curious if we can leverage some lessons for the Scouts from all of this.  Let's go back to the original topic of this discussion - authenticity.

I've felt for a very long time that a significant portion of the Scouting volunteers do not respect the BSA national organization nor many of the councils.   They find the decisions of the organization difficult to understand.  They believe that decisions are made that do not reflect the needs of the Scout or the units. 

Perhaps in a sense, the BSA leadership themselves are missing the point of authenticity in their own leadership style?

[fred8033]

I just removed my latest response.

Ya know ... I wanted to assert a good framework through which we can teach leadership.  Perhaps, this channel shows we can't do that.

Maybe we stop pretending to teach leadership and just stick to knots.

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by fred8033