YPT and family members

[scoutldr]

As one who spent a career writing and interpreting safety and health laws and regulations, these BSA rules clearly smack of "CYA" on the part of the BSA.  They are there in case anything happens, then the BSA can say, "well, we told them not to do it."  The BSA has NO authority over me and my interactions with my own family.

[69RoadRunner]

57 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

As one who spent a career writing and interpreting safety and health laws and regulations, these BSA rules clearly smack of "CYA" on the part of the BSA.  They are there in case anything happens, then the BSA can say, "well, we told them not to do it."  The BSA has NO authority over me and my interactions with my own family.

I agree. Ambiguous rules or not, BSA cannot tell immediate family members that they can't be one to one. 

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

The BSA has NO authority over me and my interactions with my own family.

OK, then how about this rule.

Quote

Tenting
• In Cub Scouting, parents and guardians may share a tent with their family.
• In all other programs, youth and adults tent separately.

So, you are on a Scouts, BSA camp out and decide that you are going to tent with your son (we've had this come up with camping in my area due to COVID). Are you therefore indicating that you'll ignore the rule and tent with your son?
 

 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

OK, then how about this rule.

So, you are on a Scouts, BSA camp out and decide that you are going to tent with your son (we've had this come up with camping in my area due to COVID). Are you therefore indicating that you'll ignore the rule and tent with your son?

 

This topic has been about interactions outside of scouting.  I think you are making the same mistake as BSA when you confuse the two things.  There is a big difference between regulating activities at a unit campout and trying to control people's interactions outside of scouting.

 

[Jameson76]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

OK, then how about this rule.

So, you are on a Scouts, BSA camp out and decide that you are going to tent with your son (we've had this come up with camping in my area due to COVID). Are you therefore indicating that you'll ignore the rule and tent with your son?

Tent with my son on an outing??  That would mean that we would need to speak with other on an outing, possibly make eye contact, and horrors, he would need to acknowledge that he knows me and potentially have interaction with me.

As none of those are going to happen, the whole tenting together is not happening.  Plus he has BO and talks in his sleep.

[Owls_are_cool]

When I am at a Troop Meeting or Campout with my son (usually I am the first there and last to leave), I start the two deep adult leadership the second another scout shows up and their parent has to stay until another scout leader appears. Parents that need adult children or cousins to take scouts to meetings (because of work, etc), always tell me who they have authorized to drop off and pick up their children. In this case the line starts when the scout arrives at a meeting our outing. Occasionally I pick up and return a scout home for a parent, so my son or another adult is with me to comply with regs and the line starts at pick up and drop off. I occasionally meet with scouts for advancement stuff at McDonalds or via Zoom, but the scout's parents must be there with me (or another adult leader of the troop). 

Other than my son, I am never alone with a scout in my troop outside of scouting. Outside of scouting, my son can be alone with anyone I deem as a parent safe to be alone with. If any of these persons are involved in scouting care should be taken to protect the BSA. Extended family that are in scouting seems okay. Friends and neighbors? In the end, they should practice two deep adult supervision or the buddy system to avoid one on one contact even outside of scouting. These rules will work to protect anyone supervising children inside or outside of scouting, so use it as much as possible...even within your own extended family.

[T2Eagle]

I have a number of thoughts on this, and like the rule they're not going to be completely crystallized.

First, in all of this discussion the thing to keep in mind is that the enforcement mechanism for any of this, or said differently, the benefit conferred for compliance with any of this, is continued membership in BSA and to a lesser extent coverage by their insurers for things that may go wrong.   BSA is not the only organization that does this.  My religion has provisions for excommunication for certain acts, even if those acts occur outside of church or church functions.  Lots of employers either explicitly or implicitly have rules that govern your behavior outside the workplace, and the enforcement mechanism is the same, dismissal from membership, ie fired.  So this is a question of degree not kind.

If you actually go read the details of the instances of abuse that have occurred over the years, both in scouting and in the Catholic Church, what you'll see is that much, maybe even most of the abuse occurs outside actual sanctioned events.  Contact and trust is built through scouting, and then the worst acts occur when the victim is with the predator away from organized events.  This is exactly the situation this rule is trying to prevent, so the rule mostly makes sense.

To the original question, where's the line for family members?, there's no way BSA could define that.  You would have to spend pages and pages defining who is and isn't a family member --- adult step siblings? the second cousin's wife?  dad's girlfriend who has lived with Johnny scout for a decade but hasn't married his father?  grandmom's third husband?  --- and even then you'd have situations unaddressed.  It makes more sense to leave that up to you: where do you want the risk line to be drawn for your child, where do you want the risk line to be drawn for your BSA membership.  

Then there's the question of liability and insurance.  Set aside abuse and think about that sleepover, maybe it's your kid and his or her patrol mates, and something bad happens, maybe a terrible injury to a kid, maybe they burn down your garage and part of your house.  The scout's lawyer in the case of injury or your lawyer in the case of property damage, is going to rightfully look for parties who can share the loss.  A patrol sleepover is going to look like, and maybe treated like, a scouting event.  If BSA can say hey, we have a rule that this is prohibited behavior, they have a better chance of not being on the hook.  This is probably a minor consideration on their part, the amount of money they might save on insurance for having this rule is pennies at best, but it is prudence on their part, and therefore Thrifty.

So exercise common sense and prudence, these rules and their enforcement inescapably have a component where judgment and not blind adherence has to be used by both sides, and if BSA is going to foolishly interpret its own rules such that they would dismiss you from membership for sleeping in the same tent as your kid, then you haven't lost much when you lose that membership.

[elitts]

20 hours ago, qwazse said:

. Right now "public service" announcements are reminding us that being exposed to pornography is a form of sexual abuse.

 

Yeah, I've seen that one too...  Great!  Lets water down the concept and criminalize more people at the same time.  I can already picture the headline.  Some 14-year old gets found looking at a porn site and between an outraged parent and a DA looking to get re-elected using a "tough on crime" platform, suddenly the classmate he/she got the link from is on trial for a sex crime.

And since I want to be crystal clear, there is a clear and significant distinction between an adult exposing a youth to porn as a grooming tool and kids talking about and sharing that stuff among themselves.

[MattR]

This is in the Open Discussion-Program sub forum and the discussion about porn is not related.

[David CO]

6 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

BSA is not the only organization that does this.  My religion has provisions for excommunication for certain acts, even if those acts occur outside of church or church functions. 

My religion does not impose any rules about not having appropriate one-on-one interactions outside of church functions.  Nor does it impose two-deep adult leadership outside of church.  I don't know of any religion or organization, other than BSA, that does this.  I do think BSA is unique in this regard.  I could be wrong, but I don't know of any.

 

[elitts]

15 hours ago, MattR said:

This is in the Open Discussion-Program sub forum and the discussion about porn is not related.

I agree that a "discussion about porn" isn't related; however, I will argue (just one time) that the existence of porn IS related by virtue of it being a potential factor in YPT.  I mean, my troop can't be the only one where there has been a scout caught watching inappropriate material on a cell phone.   So when that happens, is it just a teen/tween being a standard kid or is that scout now a possible sexual abuse victim (because someone exposed them to it or allowed them to be exposed to it) that the Scoutmaster needs to report to Council and possibly the Police/Child Services?

That said, I won't belabor the point as I have no further comments to make on the issue.

Edited September 23, 2020 by elitts

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, elitts said:

I agree that a "discussion about porn" isn't related; however, I will argue (just one time) that the existence of porn IS related by virtue of it being a potential factor in YPT.  I mean, my troop can't be the only one where there has been a scout caught watching inappropriate material on a cell phone.   So when that happens, is it just a teen/tween being a standard kid or is that scout now a possible sexual abuse victim (because someone exposed them to it or allowed them to be exposed to it) that the Scoutmaster needs to report to Council and possibly the Police/Child Services?

That said, I won't belabor the point as I have no further comments to make on the issue.

It's an interesting side question for certain.  How does the evolving of abuse factor into what is reported?  Perhaps 10 years ago it would have been considered absurd to report that. Today some on the more leading edge of this topic probably would suggest you do.  10, 20 years from now - who knows?  There may be a time when it would be considered shocking that we didn't report it.  Or maybe folks will decide that this is overreach.  Your guess is as good as mine.

I suspect that today the BSA guidance would be to follow the G2SS and report what it describes.  If the BSA updates it's materials to include that, then report what they advise at that time.

[Eagledad]

7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

It's an interesting side question for certain.  How does the evolving of abuse factor into what is reported?  Perhaps 10 years ago it would have been considered absurd to report that. Today some on the more leading edge of this topic probably would suggest you do.  10, 20 years from now - who knows?  There may be a time when it would be considered shocking that we didn't report it.  Or maybe folks will decide that this is overreach.  Your guess is as good as mine.

I suspect that today the BSA guidance would be to follow the G2SS and report what it describes.  If the BSA updates it's materials to include that, then report what they advise at that time.

Interesting.

For some reason, young men of scouting age think tents are sound proof. Not a big deal in normal camping situations, but tents set up side by side on High Adventure Outings can put adults in difficult situations as Scouts in their innocence have discussions that would concern many mothers. A mother once told me any discussion her son had with other scouts that is sexual in nature was abuse by the other scouts and should be reported.

My wife ran into something like this when two scouts in her GS troop were writing provocative stories at night during summer camp. She inquired the GSUSA equivalent of a SE if there was anything she should say to the parents. The SE insisted my wife call the police and send a report to National. My wife left the GS office and withdrew my daughter and herself from the GSUSA. The over-reaction by the adults scared her a lot more than the curious writtings of the two young girls. I can see how this can get out of control in a CYA culture.

Barry

[MattR]

8 hours ago, elitts said:

I agree that a "discussion about porn" isn't related; however, I will argue (just one time) that the existence of porn IS related by virtue of it being a potential factor in YPT. 

I can't believe I'm saying this but thank you for making the connection between porn and scouts. 😀 Now we're closer to back on track.

[69RoadRunner]

I'm so old, I can remember when this was about adult family members being one to one with child family members.