ambana Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 First I am sorry I did not know I Was yelling.First it is the den dues we are talking about.the dues for the year is 100.00 dollars a year.The den leader wants that by first pack mtg.We have been told that if it is not paid no camp awards will be given.The parents were told that in front of the whole den of parents who have already paid.which is why I think it is unfair.I know for a fact that the childs only activity is boy scouts and no his parents dont drive a new car.the reason that i say he is being discriminated against, is that the den should have told every one.Before the summer camp. the child is only 7 yrs old.He does not understand why he is the only one not getting his awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 $100 a year - Den dues??!! Holy Moley! Your Den Leader is making out like a bandit on this one! Why would Den dues have anything to do with awards earned at camp? Does your Pack charge dues too? With Den dues at $100, I shudder to guess what the Pack dues might be. Does your Pack do any fundraising? Awards should be purchased by the Pack from Pack funds, not from Den funds. Does your Pack not have an Advancement Chair? ALL of the costs, and penalties, of a year of Scouting in your Pack should have been disclosed upfront at the very beginning when this boy and his family registered. If they were never told of these den dues at that time they have every right to tell your Pack to put their den dues request where the sun does not shine and find a new Pack which is more honest, upfront and cheaper. He can get the recognitions he earned during Summer Camp at his new Pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Ladies and Gentlemen of the Forum. I closed the other threads concerning this issue, not because its something we can't discuss, but to concentrate all the answers in one thread. I chose this thread because it seems to have the most information concerning the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Den dues of $100 payable up front does seem out of line, and I know a lot of parents that would object to that. Does your Pack also charge dues in addition to the registration fee? What do the den dues cover? How is the money accounted for? We still have more questions than we have answers. In my experience, typical den dues, if any, is rarely more than $1 a week, payable weekly. In a den of 8 boys, that should be more than enough to cover any routine den expenses. Of course, if there's a field trip that requires an admission fee, that would be extra, but those should be rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Does the pack do anything as a fundraiser besides dues???? Every pack I know of has a dollar a week dues for den supplies and then sells Scout Popcorn for the remainder of the financial needs. Not only is it far easier on the parents, it raises a lot more than $100 a boy. It also allows every family to afford scouting regardless of their income. Certainly someone has taken scout leader training and knows this??? (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambana Posted September 18, 2004 Author Share Posted September 18, 2004 In answer to your question.Yes they do the popcorn fundraiser,and also a carwash.Yes they have attended a training program.Even when I questioned them about the dues being so high.I was told that each den is different.And the leader could charge what they wanted for dues.Also the field trips they have went on.Did not cost anything,they went to the fire station and the local newspaper for a tour.I also have a older son.Who just finished cubscouts with the same pack.But his dues was not that costly.It was also a different cub master at the time.This master, if the kids do something wrong he makes them due pushups in front of the other boys.For punishment,this is very upsetting to me because this use to be a very fun group.And all the boys use to have a lot of fun.But it seems they are all walking a tight rope.And they dont know what they can or can not do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Thank you OGE,trying to keep track of the same subject in 3 different places was a chore. As I posted in the now closed Thread I am all for people paying their own way. I did try and view the member profile of ambana to see if the advise that we offer might be more specific. Not knowing what position she holds in the pack could make some of the advise offered meaningless. I am a little unsure how a little Lad of seven years old has already attended summer camp? While I know this can happen it is not the norm. Pack Finances are a strange animal. Strange because every pack seems to have a different way of managing them. While I in no way pretend or even dream that the way pack 155 managed their finances during the time that I served as Cubmaster. Here is an outline with some added comments from myself. While I was Cubmaster, all matters regarding fiancs and money were in the hands of the Pack Committee. The Pack did have a Committee Member that was selected to serve as Treasurer. In our case the person they selected was Her That Must Be Obeyed. She remained Treasurer long after I was gone. She did a great job keeping the books, but at times was not very flexible. She came up with a set of rules that the committee accepted and she stuck by them. Three people from the Committee were selected as "Check Signers." Two of these signatures were required. None of the Pack Leaders were allowed to be on this list. She had a rule that unless there was a dire need that she would only write checks at the monthly meeting of the committee. When I first took on the role of Cubmaster, OJ had been in the pack for a little while and I was hiding at the back of the hall, so I wouldn't be asked to do anything!! Needless to say it didn't work. The pack had no budget and the entire program seemed to revolve around Cub Scouts selling stuff. All the money went into the pack account and this paid for all the pack expenses. The Den Leaders did collect Den Dues of 25 cents a week. After a while it seemed apparent that we were doing way to many fund raising events and some of the parents were upset that they were "Carrying" the Cub Scouts that didn't participate in the fund raising events. Most of our Cub Scouts attended he School that was part of our church and the school had a lot of fund raising events. Most of the Cub Scouts also played Soccer and the Soccer Club also had a lot of fund raising events. The leaders sat down and worked out the Annual plan for the year. As Cubmaster I done my best to work out how much the program was going to cost for each Cub Scout. I didn't include Cub Scout Resident Camp. The amount covered rechartering, Boy's life, Day Camp, District Events, Pack Trips, the Pack Picnic. It was one heck of a list. This was presented to the Pack Committee, for their approval. As a rule they took the list as it was. We then totaled how it up and divided the total by how many Cub Scout we had in the pack. I can't remember the exact amount I think it was at that time a little under a $100.00 per child. The parents were then informed that the cost was $100.00 and they could opt to do the fund raising events which we whittled down to two: Pop Corn and a frozen Pizza Sale. Or they could pay the $100.00 over time. If they wanted to do the fund raising events the first $100.00 went to the pack. Some parents paid the $100.00 and still did the sales to pay for resident camp. Den dues did increase to 50 cents a week. However the Den Leaders complained that collecting them was a pain. Boys forgot them, lost them and all that good stuff. So went to having the Den Leaders collecting a $2.00 a month. Which was an increase for the dens as most only met 3 times a month. There were Cub Scouts that we help with the cost of resident camp. Families that had more then one boy in the program. We had one family with four boys in the pack and both parents. If there was a family that fell behind in the $100.00 It was left to the Committee members to contact the parent and see what was the reason. Most times they chose to inform me. But there were times when they didn't they felt that I didn't need to know. I was fine with that. They were the Management Committee. That is how we managed the pack finances in pack 155. Looking at the problem at hand. I feel that the parents of this Lad need to contact the Cubmaster or better still the Pack Committee Chairman and explain that $100.00 at this time would cause undue hardship to the family and might mean that the boy would have to leave the program. If the family and the boy are willing to participate in the pack fund raising events, they could use that money to pay the money that is needed. I as a parent would very tactfully question how the matter of $100.00 was communicated to the parents. Did I miss something? Was it brought up at a meeting that I missed? Why and how come I didn't know about it? While at times we all use the Den Leader to be the messenger. I don't think that the Den Leaders should be involved in the "High Finance" aspects of the pack. Bottom line is that I feel sure if the parent starts communicating with the right people which might not be the Den Leader? Something can be worked out. If it can't then I would be looking for a pack that has more open lines of communication. Eamonn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambana Posted September 18, 2004 Author Share Posted September 18, 2004 I am sorry you dont think that a child of seven could go to summer camp.But that is were you are wrong.He indeed was a tiger last year.And did indeed go to summer camp.I dont know were you are from. but is the norm for us that are boys go to summer camp.The camp they attended was camp Wiley,up at running springs CA.And yes the parents did pay for him to go.that is why it does not seem right for him not to get his awards.when the mother tried to discuss this matter with the cub master.She was told.What goes on in that den, should only be discussed with that particular den leader.That each den takes care of thier own problems.When she tried to ask the den leader. The den leader said ask the cub master.When she went back to the cub master.He got very angry and said he could not deal with that problem.So that is why I found this site as a concerned mother. who also has four boys.To offer my help to this mother.Because you never know when it could be you in thier shoes.And I dont think any child she be left behind because of thier ability to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hops_scout Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Term usage is impairing some people in this thread.... "Summer Camp" usually refers to a week-long Boy Scout residence camp where usually the focus is on advancement. Still having fun is important though "Day Camp" is what you appear to be describing. It is open usually to boys who just recieved their Bobcat badge until they are out of the pack. Foucs it usually on having fun while still working on advancement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Ambana - I think the question here is why any of you are still with this Pack. There is more wrong here than just a family who can't pay den dues. You say that the Pack's leaders, including the Cubmaster are trained. Sorry, but it sure does not sound like it. Having Cub Scout age boys (or any boys) do pushups as punishment is against BSA Youth Protection Policy!! There is another thread currently under discussion on just that issue. You might want to take a look under "Long Time Scouter needs New Guidance". Contact your Charter Org Representative and let them know what is going on in the Pack. If the Charter Org does nothing then contact your Unit Commissioner. If your UC cannot talk some sense into your Pack leaders then, following Youth Protection guidelines, I would report the Cubmaster's actions to your Council's Scout Executive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Hops, Cubs can also attend Summer Camp. There are Cub camps that run from 2 nights to a week long resident camp. Some Packs go as a group, some as a Den, some sign up individually. Our current 4th grade Webelos attended a 4 night, 5 day Webelos 1 camp at Chicago Council's Hoover Outdoor Education Center this summer. I think the confusion was in E thinking of the boy as a new Tiger going to camp. Tigers who sign up in the Spring after graduating from kindergarten are indeed eligible to attend Summer camp, but this is, as E stated, not an everyday event. However this particular boy went to camp as a new Wolf Scout after completing his Tiger year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Please forgive me I did not intent to Hijack the thread. I just thought it was odd that a child of 7 was at camp. In our Council Boys recruited as Tiger Cubs in the spring can attend Day Camp. However at this Day Camp, they don't earn any Badges. The Awards, mainly a certificate of participation are awarded on the last day of the camp. Even at Resident Camp, the boys don't earn that many awards maybe the belt loop for the shooting sports, but I doubt if a little fellow of 7 would pass the requirements. It does sound as if the pack has a lot of problems. ambana, what is your position in the pack? I see that you say you are a concerned mother. I was just wondering if you were also active in any other way? It does seem that you are worried about how things are going in this pack. I know that if I were in your shoes I would be looking for a new pack. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambana Posted September 19, 2004 Author Share Posted September 19, 2004 No I am just a parent who has been involved in this pack for 6 years.5 of those years were under a different cub master.All I know is that they went to a training class in which my husband also attended.This is were my husband found out that the things he is doing is wrong.As for looking for a new pack.I am currently looking for one.We think we might have found one.With the local church.My husband and I are going to check it out.Hopefully this will be the one that,we will go with.I am also encouraging the mother of the boy to attend the meeting with us.My younger son is also a new wolf and attended the camp with this other child.Which was for 4 days and 3 nights.Where they earned about 4 belt loops,and a couple of patches.I agree it is time for us to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndaigler Posted September 19, 2004 Share Posted September 19, 2004 Ambana - Please be sure to let the District/Council know why you are changing Packs -- And please take with you as many kids/families as you can!!!!!!!!!! None of us are perfect, but the mean-spirited chaos you've been describing insults and damages us all. Thanks for your clear thinking and help! jd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambana Posted September 19, 2004 Author Share Posted September 19, 2004 Thank you everyone for your input.I will try to take everyone that will follow.All of your information has given me what I have been feeling,for a long time with this pack.I will be contacting the council,of what has been going on.hopefully there will be changes for the boys/families who decide to stay. ambana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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