More Scouting "War Stories" - Fire, anyone?

[OldGreyEagle]

Hope everything came out alright

[fountainhead]

Before I weigh in on this issue, I'd just like to say that I have been lurking on this site for several months and have read through a large portion of the year's archives. The discussions are fantastic and have been a great help in moving me along the learning curve and correcting many of my misconceptions of the scouting program.

 

Now to my comment.

 

The issue of fire safety has recently been put on the front burner, so to speak, in our troop. Long story short, several of the younger scouts (11-12 years old, Second Class and below) were taken on a hike by a 15-year old Life ASPL. Conflicting stories, but apparently the ASPL brought along hand sanitizer in a cup that he started on fire. He then probably encouraged, but at least allowed, other scout(s) to spray an aerosol above the flame to create a torch. The fire did not get out of hand and there were no injuries, but several parents are up in arms about this, we have concerns about trusting this scout to lead others and we have had several discussions regarding the appropriate discipline.

 

Several questions:

 

1) What do you think would be the appropriate action to take with respect to discipline? Remove the scout from his office? Hold him from advancement for X months? Have him complete some sort of project or training to regain trust? Who has the final say on the discipline (parents have been told it is totally within the Scoutmasters discretion the minimal discipline he is coming up with isnt sitting well with some of them)?

 

2) Since this type of thing has happened before, we have been considering having a presentation on just how dangerous this could have been. There is a video that was developed by the University of Michigan called In an Instant regarding the severe consequences of burn injuries. There is a 5 minute preview available at this address it is pretty sobering ( http://www.traumaburn.org/traumaburn/video/default.asp ). We have been discussing purchasing this video (although I showed just the preview to my 12-year old son, who was not on the campout, and he said this made the point to him). The thought was to present all or part of this to parents and then, with their permission, to the scouts. Would you have any qualms about using the video or this approach? Would you show the video just to older scouts/PLC members/all scouts? Do you know of other resources to address this issue?

 

3) Does your troop have a formalized program to address safety of scouts (particularly when being led by other scouts)? I dont want to overdo the doom and gloom, but I also think our troop is very lax about certain things (buddy system, having the ten essentials with you when hiking, etc.). We currently camp in the same areas year after year (something that hopefully will change) and the scouts are generally pretty familiar with where they should and shouldnt be, so this hasnt been a huge concern of mine. However, I would like to do something more proactive particularly for that time in the (hopefully) not too distant future when we branch out to unfamiliar territory. How do you address this in your units? How tough are you on enforcing these rules?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[dan]

The way I understand the process, it is the Committees job to deal with discipline.

But If I where the SM of the troop, I would have the ASPL prepare and give each patrol (not as a troop) a presentation on fire safety. I would not allow him to give the presentation until I have viewed it and approved it. I may even have him use the video you discussed within the presentation, I would have to see the video.

Possibly also remove his privilege to use fire.

[peewee]

Fountainhead -- Welcome to the forum and thanks for the web site -- I will use the clip at my fire safety merit badge class, along with other clips that show everyday accident things that effects our life. Kids and even adults have a hard time understanding "IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU" -- as what to do about the scout? I go along with Brad - take away his fire privileges, (it's not much) and have him do a presentaion on fire safety and burn care.RM

[SemperParatus]

In our troop, discipline in this case would probably be addressed at the Committee level rather than at the PLC level since the scout is part of the PLC. After ascertaining the facts and discussing with the SPL and the scout involved and his parent(s), as SM I would recommend disciplinary action to the Committee - who would make the final decision. In this case, I would seek a public apology from the scout to the troop, loss of fire privileges for two camping trips, and his instruction of fire safety to the new scout patrol. That is assuming this has not happened before with this scout.

[fountainhead]

Roger,

 

As I mentioned, I was hoping to perhaps expand this safety topic beyond just the fire safety aspect. You mentioned you have other clips you use in your "this could happen to you" presentation. What types of things do you show?

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Young men, when they get their first chance to really lead, often stick their chest out and demonstrate how they came to such an awesome level of power. Most of them just walk around with a puffed up chest and spout a few macho lines. Some, however, do something really foolish.

 

Assuming this has been a good kid all along and never done anything like this before, I would take the approach of sitting down in a SM conference with him. I would do this ASAP. I would first make sure he understood his mistake and is truly remorseful for it. Second, I would try to get him to determine the appropriate discipline. I would go along the lines of having him apologize to the boys on the trip and teach them about fire safety.

 

I would then inform the committee of the actions you've taken. Explain the rationale behind it. Again, assuming this is a first-time offense, I would not open it up for further discussion. I would try to get the discussion to end at that. The reason is that this type of stuff can linger and fester forever. If he is truly sorry, you won't have to worry about him doing something this foolish again. They don't need to be second-guessing every decision or action that you make.

 

Now, if this isn't the first time he has done something like this, or if you are not convinced that he "gets it", then I would turn to the committee for advice. The last thing you want to do is tell the committee "trust me, it's fixed" and then have him do it again in six months. You'll lose credibility (and probably several young scouts).

[BSAT17SPL]

I have a "war Story" about fire involving myself and another older scout. At the time I was a star scout and the other scout also. I was 14 and he was 17. It was November and every November my troop cooks a Thanksgiving dinner and starting two years ago we started to deepfry them. Well after dinner we started a fire and me and the other scout thought that it would be a cool idea to pour all the peanut oil from the turkey on the fire. Well all i have to say is I'm glad that our leaders had good eye on us because seconds before we dumped it we got stopped. Luckly. We were told to go put the peanut oil away and grab ONLY a coffee can full. Well all i hvae say is that that day an angel was watching me because If we had dumped all that oil on the fire we would have been badly burned or dead.

 

Moral: DON'T MESS WITH FIRE.

[NeilLup]

Fire story - Campfire at summer camp - Two stone fire lay areas on each side of the main area - rain all week and wood very wet. Person responsible for fire wants to make sure fire starts well. Liberally douses with "Scout water." Later, person responsible for campfire wants to make sure fire starts well. Liberally douses with "Scout water." Later still, Camp Director wants to make sure fire starts well. Liberally douses with "Scout water." Time to light fire. Tremendous WHOOSH and flames shoot 75 feet high. Eyebrows gone on fire lighters.

 

As far as your ASPL, as one of the leaders at the Northeast Region WB Course Director's Conference says, the reason that boys join Scouting is fire and knives. I know that the standards have changed, but if I did as a Scout today some of the things that I did as a Scout, PL and SPL in the 50s and 60s, I'd either be seriously dosed with meds or else be arrested. The nature of boys hasn't changed, just the standards to which they are held. Discuss the matter with the ASPL and find out what he thinks is appropriate. He'll probably be pretty tough on himself. Don't let him be too tough on himself.

[GabeTheRockStar]

Fountainhead -

Perhaps you have already seen the thread on "boy run" scouting and discipline. My conclusion from a lot of discussion between several seasoned scouters on that thread leads me to agree (yet again) with EagleInKY. See if you can handle it yourself, if you are the SM. I do like the idea of removing his Fire Chit for a designated period of time. It hurts, but doesn't disgrace him more than necessary, especially considering no one was hurt. The problem seems to be a lack of respect for fire. If the problem seems to be a lack of respect for leadership, then consult the committee, since he could present a safety threat to the boys.

 

 

ozemu -

I liked the flaming toothpaste story. If y'all didn't rename your patrol the Flaming Toothpaste Patrol you missed the boat.

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

Every SM will eventually have to deal with a scout, or scouts playing with fire, or knives or swinging a stave. I will start by saying we pretty much handled these situations the way EagleInKy explained in his post. Man that guy has been in a groove lately.

 

Anyway I dont see discipline as the issue unless you knew the scout acted to spite the rules. Its an accountability of actions issue. In fact, as you practice more of this Scouting Stuff, you will realize most of what adults do is hold scouts accountable to their actions so they develop the habit of choosing right over choosing wrong.

 

This is important because you want to create an environment where all the scouts hold each other accountable. Whenever a scout was caught doing something like this, I tended to get the scout to think of a way to teach the whole troop or at least the PLC about the dangers and safety of his actions. You are then turning his negative action into positive action. You dont have to yell or get angry. In a quiet tone you ask him to admit the harm of his actions so that you know that he knew better. Sometimes they dont. Then guide him to do an action of accountability so they understand that there are reprocussions to all actions. Our PLC got in the habit of making the scouts write letters to their parents and Patrols.

 

Also you want to encourage all the scouts to police themselves. You will always have that one kid who likes to experiment with fire, but its the other scouts who you trust to stop him. In fact, if I caught a scout doing something wrong while other scouts around did nothing to stop him, usually the other scouts were first to clearly feel my disappointment before I worked with the offending scout. It takes a little while before scouts realize that you want them to take responsibility to stop bad behavoir. Usually they are waiting for the adult.

 

Good discussion.

 

Barry

 

[fountainhead]

I appreciate all the good advice. It's been very helpful to get some perspective on the issue of the moment.

 

It's also good to be reminded to keep the "big picture" in mind (fostering accountability, developing character and leadership, etc.) when dealing with specific issues. This theme is very strong throughout this forum. When I actually stop and consciously remember the core principles, the course to take becomes, if not clear, at least a little less murky.