New Council Fee

[MattR]

All of the angst is about the cost of running a council and the fact that most of that is covered by donations. It's $600/yr/scout in my council. Add in the fact that we talk about how boring eagle required MBs are, is there really a surprise that parents are questioning the value of scouts? Trust me that I don't enjoy this but this is one of those hard facts that needs to be addressed.

[5thGenTexan]

5 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

In normal times our council also has a deadline for refund requests, after which there are no refunds.  These are not normal times, and that policy has been suspended since we were able to return to limited in person activity.  If a scout registered for summer camp and got sick the day before, his/her money was refunded.  Same with our OA lodge activities.

University of Scouting is coming up shortly, and is being offered at no cost this year.  Any district events we offer, such as Webelos Woods or camporee are also at no cost, due to the new council activity fee.  While I was not thrilled with the idea of a council activity fee, at least here they have taken the money and basically done away with fees for most training (reduced fees for Woodbadge) and for all district events.

Our 2021 UoS was this past Saturday.  They wanted $18 to participate virtually.  In lieu of my previous "donations" I decided to sit this year out and my Webelos Den worked on Cast Iron Chef Saturday morning.

Edited January 13, 2021 by 5thGenTexan

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

All of the angst is about the cost of running a council and the fact that most of that is covered by donations. It's $600/yr/scout in my council. Add in the fact that we talk about how boring eagle required MBs are, is there really a surprise that parents are questioning the value of scouts? Trust me that I don't enjoy this but this is one of those hard facts that needs to be addressed.

@MattR and others...

Spot on!

A council (or any organization) must be of value, be able to demonstrate that value, and advocate for their value-added to Scouting.

Our council is dysfunctional, for many reasons similar to those some of you see in other councils.

That was my challenge to our council. "If you want our money and support, please tell us what value you give to our program." 

-  Our district events are not fun or interesting for our Scouts, therefore not well attended.  If our PLC does not wish to do District events, I CANNOT veto them.  I only veto their decisions for health and safety reasons.  I have given much time to District events and Committees, but for the last two years, our SE has denied my participation, ostensibly based on my non-support of FOS.  Our PLC has volunteered to help run a few District events.  For the last two, the PLC responded on short notice to staff stations at an event, and, after jumping through hoops to get people and materials together, were told at the last minute, "We don't need you now, we have adults who will staff the event stations."

- Our council events?  Aren't any...our last council-level event for units was three years ago.  Our Troop supported it, and constructed a Pioneering project that was a hit.  Constant line to participate and climb on it...  Cost for the event was $30 a head, and that did not include food cost for our unit.  Did not get program value for $30 a head.  (Our local amusement parks charge about $40 a head for groups over 20. Our Scouts prefer those.)

- Our OA Lodge?  A self-serving organization that does nothing visible for our units.  Our Committee and I support using the OA in our unit as an honor recognition for our Scouts.  When they start doing service events in our council or community, I will encourage them to wider participation.

- Our local camp?  Our Scouts don't want to go there to camp or for Summer Camp.  The facilities are horrible, and we can get similar or better services from our county and state parks, or local facilities, for cheaper prices, with less interference and interruption to our program.  Our unit has done at least eight service projects over the past five years worth thousands of dollars to improve portions of camp...  not one iota of thanks or recognition for our Scouts.  (Not that they do it for the thanks, but gratitude costs little to nothing.  We did a service project for our local land conservation non-profit (with expenditures similar to our council) and every single Scout participating got a hand-written thank you card from them.)

- Our Scout Shop?  Awesome, keep it.  Although, we can get everything we need from on line Scout Shop, at same prices.  Our local shop allows us to get 99% of our needs quicker...you pay for convenience

- Our Registrar?  Awesome.  But, I believe most functions could be automated and placed on line.  Scoutbook has been a huge improvement in our ability and agility to file for advancements and recognize our Scouts.  It took two years of lobbying to get our council to put MBC lists in Scoutbook.

- Our District Executive?  Don't have one.  I have done the Charter Agreement for our CO for the last four years, and delivered it to council.  We get support from our Scout office in no-cost-to-unit printing of recruiting materials.

- Our Unit Commissioner?  Don't know who that is this week (sarcasm).  A Commissioner only visits when I specifically ask our District Commissioner for a visit.  They have an open invitation to attend any event or outing.  Never seen one...  "The commissioner is the liaison between the local council and Scouting units. The commissioner’s mission is to keep units operating at maximum efficiency, maintain regular contact with unit leaders, coach leaders on where to find assistance, note weaknesses in programs, and suggest remedies. The commissioner is successful when units effectively deliver the ideals of Scouting to their members."  I know we are one of the best units in District and Council, but we never get that feedback from any level...  We are left in a state of benign neglect.  I have offered to become a Commissioner when my tenure ends this year.  Will be dependent on whether SE still denies my participation at the district and council level.

and the list goes on...

I would love for our council to improve, but suggestions for change are not solicited, and, when given, are routinely ignored or rejected.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagle94-A1]

Council fee is $33 on top of everything else.

Got a letter today saying all district/council camping activities, not just the Cub Scout Family Activities, needs  a certified Camp Administrator and the cost of the virtual training is $55. WHY DOES IT COST IF IT IS VIRTUAL AND REQUIRED FOR PROGRAM? ( emphasis)

I can understand IOLS charging. had to pay for food, supplies, handouts, etc. And when I did Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, we charged $5 for snacks, handouts, and a resource CD I put together. The info on the CD was well worth the $5 by itself.

But $55 for a virtual class taught by a volunteer?

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Council fee is $33 on top of everything else.

Got a letter today saying all district/council camping activities, not just the Cub Scout Family Activities, needs  a certified Camp Administrator and the cost of the virtual training is $55. WHY DOES IT COST IF IT IS VIRTUAL AND REQUIRED FOR PROGRAM? ( emphasis)

I can understand IOLS charging. had to pay for food, supplies, handouts, etc. And when I did Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, we charged $5 for snacks, handouts, and a resource CD I put together. The info on the CD was well worth the $5 by itself.

But $55 for a virtual class taught by a volunteer?

Sometimes you wonder if they are trying to put themselves out of business...

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But $55 for a virtual class taught by a volunteer?

If it is virtual, and required by National, could it be done through https://training.scouting.org/??

Or is it tailored to your specific locale??

[CynicalScouter]

25 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Got a letter today saying all district/council camping activities, not just the Cub Scout Family Activities, needs  a certified Camp Administrator and the cost of the virtual training is $55. WHY DOES IT COST IF IT IS VIRTUAL AND REQUIRED FOR PROGRAM? ( emphasis)

The $55 National Camping School fee is set by and goes direct to National.  Not only does your local Council not get a dime, the local Council has to then add in another $100 as a hosting fee.

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/camping/short-term-camp/

Quote

 

Local Council Facilitated Short-Term Camp Administrator Courses

Councils can apply to host the course (NOTE: Host council fee of $100 is collected with application). In order to qualify to host the course, the council will need to provide the name of the qualified trainer. A trainer qualifies if they hold a current certification in Resident Camp Director or Resident Camp Administration from National Camping School. 

If approved councils will be authorized to offer the training multiple times over a 6-month period. 

Once the councils completes a course the council will submit a roster as well as $55 per person National Camping School fee to the National Council. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

The $55 National Camping School fee is set by and goes direct to the National Council. And each Council has to then add in another $100 as a hosting fee.

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/camping/short-term-camp/

 

And only good for two years?  Whereas a NCS certification is good for five??  For me to volunteer to be your Short-Term Camp Administrator?

I'll pass.  Instead, I think I'll apply for the National Office job of Short-Sighted Camping Program Demolisher

Edited January 13, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[Owls_are_cool]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

That was my challenge to our council. "If you want our money and support, please tell us what value you give to our program." 

Nice documentation of issues in your council/district. My council/district (Montana) does much better in all these categories across the board, so when ICL does ramp up, the district representative has a much easier time asking for donations. Montana Council does not charge a recharter fee. They rely on commissions on popcorn sales and ICL. They get large donations and have an endowment fund to update facilities at camps in Montana. The shower/bathroom facilities at Melita Island and K-M Scout Ranch are awesome. The new dining hall/admin building at K-M Scout Ranch is amazing and they are looking at doing something similar at Melita Island. (Though Melita Island was closed last year and again this year to deal with a moth killing all the pine trees and COVID.)

Cub Scout Day Camp that our district puts on is really popular with cub scouts (and with Den Leaders) as it knocks off a bunch of advancement requirements. 

[ParkMan]

12 hours ago, yknot said:

I'm not so sure. Do you have any examples of Councils cutting fees? Most I know of either held fees or increased fees this year. I also haven't heard of any units refunding fees or offering discounts. 

Also, our Council is trying to do the right thing as far as staying afloat and holding onto a camp property, but that means charging more at a time when services are reduced. 

Sorry - what I meant is that our council is not trying to do anything shady with fees in this time.  There is no pressure to increase charges for events, not pressure to set unusual refund deadlines, no pressure to have events just for the money.

Yes - our council has not reduced the program fee.  I am certain that many parents are frustrated that they need to continue t pay the program fee.

[CynicalScouter]

13 hours ago, yknot said:

Do you have any examples of Councils cutting fees?

Tidewater Council: $24 per person. This is down from $42 thanks to a strong FOS showing in 2020.

http://tidewaterbsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Bayside-2021-Recharter-Process-Flyer.pdf

It technically worked out as two fees: $12 insurance and $12 council activity (down from $30).

Tidewater has made it absolutely clear: what they cannot get out of FOS they will get out of this council activity fee. When/if FOS comes in strong, the council activity fee will decrease.

https://tidewaterbsa.com/ek-july15-4/

Quote

Registration

2021 Council Fees

Good news! Tidewater Council is pleased to reduce the council fee required from youth and adults at annual charter renewal. We are able to reduce this fee due to generous support of the 2020 Friends of Scouting campaign by families like yours.

The 2021 council fee will be $24 per person, which includes both the insurance fee and the program fee. This is a reduction of 43%, or $18, per person. (2020 council fees included a $30 program fee and $12 insurance fee, for a total of $42 per person.) Despite the increase in the national registration fee, members of Tidewater Council will be paying less for 2021 than they did for 2020.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ParkMan]

22 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@MattR and others...

Spot on!

A council (or any organization) must be of value, be able to demonstrate that value, and advocate for their value-added to Scouting.

Our council is dysfunctional, for many reasons similar to those some of you see in other councils.

That was my challenge to our council. "If you want our money and support, please tell us what value you give to our program." 

-  Our district events are not fun or interesting for our Scouts, therefore not well attended.  If our PLC does not wish to do District events, I CANNOT veto them.  I only veto their decisions for health and safety reasons.  I have given much time to District events and Committees, but for the last two years, our SE has denied my participation, ostensibly based on my non-support of FOS.  Our PLC has volunteered to help run a few District events.  For the last two, the PLC responded on short notice to staff stations at an event, and, after jumping through hoops to get people and materials together, were told at the last minute, "We don't need you now, we have adults who will staff the event stations."

- Our council events?  Aren't any...our last council-level event for units was three years ago.  Our Troop supported it, and constructed a Pioneering project that was a hit.  Constant line to participate and climb on it...  Cost for the event was $30 a head, and that did not include food cost for our unit.  Did not get program value for $30 a head.  (Our local amusement parks charge about $40 a head for groups over 20. Our Scouts prefer those.)

- Our OA Lodge?  A self-serving organization that does nothing visible for our units.  Our Committee and I support using the OA in our unit as an honor recognition for our Scouts.  When they start doing service events in our council or community, I will encourage them to wider participation.

- Our local camp?  Our Scouts don't want to go there to camp or for Summer Camp.  The facilities are horrible, and we can get similar or better services from our county and state parks, or local facilities, for cheaper prices, with less interference and interruption to our program.  Our unit has done at least eight service projects over the past five years worth thousands of dollars to improve portions of camp...  not one iota of thanks or recognition for our Scouts.  (Not that they do it for the thanks, but gratitude costs little to nothing.  We did a service project for our local land conservation non-profit (with expenditures similar to our council) and every single Scout participating got a hand-written thank you card from them.)

- Our Scout Shop?  Awesome, keep it.  Although, we can get everything we need from on line Scout Shop, at same prices.  Our local shop allows us to get 99% of our needs quicker...you pay for convenience

- Our Registrar?  Awesome.  But, I believe most functions could be automated and placed on line.  Scoutbook has been a huge improvement in our ability and agility to file for advancements and recognize our Scouts.  It took two years of lobbying to get our council to put MBC lists in Scoutbook.

- Our District Executive?  Don't have one.  I have done the Charter Agreement for our CO for the last four years, and delivered it to council.  We get support from our Scout office in no-cost-to-unit printing of recruiting materials.

- Our Unit Commissioner?  Don't know who that is this week (sarcasm).  A Commissioner only visits when I specifically ask our District Commissioner for a visit.  They have an open invitation to attend any event or outing.  Never seen one...  "The commissioner is the liaison between the local council and Scouting units. The commissioner’s mission is to keep units operating at maximum efficiency, maintain regular contact with unit leaders, coach leaders on where to find assistance, note weaknesses in programs, and suggest remedies. The commissioner is successful when units effectively deliver the ideals of Scouting to their members."  I know we are one of the best units in District and Council, but we never get that feedback from any level...  We are left in a state of benign neglect.  I have offered to become a Commissioner when my tenure ends this year.  Will be dependent on whether SE still denies my participation at the district and council level.

and the list goes on...

I would love for our council to improve, but suggestions for change are not solicited, and, when given, are routinely ignored or rejected.

 

 

I'm sorry to hear your council is struggling so significantly.

Clearly your district/council volunteer structure is broken.  District & Council programming is the purview of volunteers.  If the district programming is boring and the council programming nonexistent, that lies in the fault of the volunteer ranks.  For whatever reason, these volunteers either are don't exist in your council, are not up to your level or expectations, or are not fulfilling those roles.  Somewhere in your council some volunteers need to start focusing on fixing this situation.

I know in your case you are trying to get involved and the SE is blocking you.  I cannot fathom why it is happening in your specific case and it is unfortunate.  

Being a unit volunteer for a long time and now a district volunteer for a long time, I've been struck by the reality that there is really a continuum of volunteerism that is needed.  For a district to provide interesting programming to units, it needs capable people to do this.  If a district is in a scenario where it is only being populated by a few "old guard" then of course district programming is going to stink.  Camporees need strong Scouters to organize them.  Professionals cannot run off good volunteers just as units shouldn't refuse to participate.  You strike me as a Scouter who really wants to help and it is unfortunate that you are being blocked.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

If a district is in a scenario where it is only being populated by a few "old guard" then of course district programming is going to stink.

This is one facet of the problem.

8 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

You strike me as a Scouter who really wants to help and it is unfortunate that you are being blocked.

Thanks.  And I am not the only one...there are quite a few around here who are in that boat.  It seems our council board is really out of touch with the volunteer base as well.

We are a perfect example of where leadership is cutting off its nose in spite of its face.

[Eagledad]

23 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

- Our District Executive?  Don't have one.  I have done the Charter Agreement for our CO for the last four years, and delivered it to council.  We get support from our Scout office in no-cost-to-unit printing of recruiting materials.

- Our Unit Commissioner?  Don't know who that is this week (sarcasm).  A Commissioner only visits when I specifically ask our District Commissioner for a visit.  They have an open invitation to attend any event or outing.  Never seen one...  "The commissioner is the liaison between the local council and Scouting units. The commissioner’s mission is to keep units operating at maximum efficiency, maintain regular contact with unit leaders, coach leaders on where to find assistance, note weaknesses in programs, and suggest remedies. The commissioner is successful when units effectively deliver the ideals of Scouting to their members."  I know we are one of the best units in District and Council, but we never get that feedback from any level...  We are left in a state of benign neglect.  I have offered to become a Commissioner when my tenure ends this year.  Will be dependent on whether SE still denies my participation at the district and council level.

 

Wow! What a mess.

First off, you claim your running one of the best programs, but not getting any feedback. What feedback do you want? My experience with a struggling Commissioner corp program is that the resources are applied to units that need help. Do you need help?

You state that the commissioner is the liaison of units to the Council. Commissioners are the liaison the DISTRCT. The DE is your liaison to the council, if you need it. Whether the DE does their job through commissioner corp or personally is up in the air and dependent of their character of how they work. What do you want to know about Council to continue to run your fine program?  

I do agree the commissioner Crop is there to help you build a quality program, but again, if you have a quality program, what else do you want? If your commissioner corp is lacking and struggling, and I have the "Been there done that T-Shirt", then help them by not taking recourses you don't need. Use them when you need them for situations that are beyond the experience of the unit volunteers.

As for the missing DE, OK, so. But you really want to see is the District Commissioner. The DC has the most power to influence units. Sadly, most districts don't understand their power and they seem to fill the position with someone who doesn't have the skills. But, if you really want to invite District/Council to see your program, the DC is the person you want because that is the Key 3 connection to the outside world.

Finally, I cheer your desire to become a commissioner, but let me point out that you can only be as good as your District Commissioner manager (DC). And you aren't painting a very pretty picture of your DC.. Every situation is different, but my suggestion is to get on the District Committee somewhere where you can do good work and earn your way to the District Commissioner position. I took that route, and I was offered the DC position. I was Sadly, the offer came 5 years after I retired from scouting and I wasn't ready to jump back in. I was flattered they remembered me and felt I was their person for the job, but I moved on with my life. To bad really, I believe the District Commissioner has the most power for influencing program in the units. I believe a unit should never see the DE if the commissioner corp is doing their job correctly.

I'm always excited to read your grounded opinions of scouting. I believe some of your thoughts will be influenced with district level volunteering. I know it changed a lot of my idealism. I look forward to reading your future posts.

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

District & Council programming is the purview of volunteers.  If the district programming is boring and the council programming nonexistent, that lies in the fault of the volunteer ranks.  For whatever reason, these volunteers either are don't exist in your council, are not up to your level or expectations, or are not fulfilling those roles.  Somewhere in your council some volunteers need to start focusing on fixing this situation.

I do not think you can make that a blanket statement. Every council is different. In mine, we have had some great volunteers on the district and council levels who get fed up with the interference of professionals in their programs that they say the heck with it, if the DE wants to tell me how to do things, he can run it. It is a major problem.

Best example I can give is district camporee chief being told told that a Cub Scout event would be held simultaneously at the same camp as the district camporee and IOLS training. This information was given 5 day prior to the camporee. Both the council training chair running the training and the camporee chief objected to the Cub Scout event occurring because it took areas of camp that were designated for events and would cause further parking issues, taking up more event areas. Camporee chief stepped down after the event, and the council training chair stepped down once the year was up. 

Another camporee chief  found out his event was cancelled via email after it was announced at the district committee meeting. And the email came from a volunteer asking if it was true. He did not know about the decision.

Sad thing is no one wants to run events anymore because of the constant interference. And the Scouts are suffering.