New Council Fee

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, let's discuss the new transparent explanation of proposed Council spending and how it is approved before discussing any new means of funding it.

I never, ever understood this argument that council is "hiding" how they spend money or not being "transparent".

1) Federal law: All Councils have to file IRS 990s. By law. These are easily available either direct from the Council for the asking (prior 3 years + the Council's not for profit application) or from the IRS (COVID has created a lag time of 6-9 months before they go online). There's also places online (Guidestar) that post these.

2) 28 states require that a not-for-profit or charity file annual audit statements if they take in revenue over a set amount a year (e.g. Arkansas = $500,000). Most councils are over the thresholds. https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/nonprofit-audit-guide/state-law-audit-requirements

3) Most states require the not-for-profit or charity file an annual report with their secretary of state or similar. https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/tools-resources/state-filing-requirements-nonprofits

4) Depending on the state, certain board and financial documents are available for public inspection and copying. Texas Business Organization Code §22.353 for example

Quote

Sec. 22.353. AVAILABILITY OF FINANCIAL INFORMATION FOR PUBLIC INSPECTION. (a) A [domestic nonprofit corporation] shall keep records, books, and annual reports of the corporation's financial activity at the corporation's registered or principal office in this state for at least three years after the close of the fiscal year.

(b) The corporation shall make the records, books, and reports available to the public for inspection and copying at the corporation's registered or principal office during regular business hours. The corporation may charge a reasonable fee for preparing a copy of a record or report.

I know with my council I was told by all the old timers that council was "hiding" its spending and "where's the money going"? I was new to scouting but NOT not-for-profits. I did something horrifying: I ASKED. I got copies of the prior two years of budget documents emailed within a day and the IRS 990s a few days later (there was a weekend or holiday, I can't remember which).

EDIT: Forgot Sarbanes Oxley! It was targeted at for-profits, but TWO sections include not for profits. Whistleblowers are protected and document destruction under Section 1102, which makes it a crime for nonprofits to alter or destroy documents that should be maintained for use in official proceeding. https://nonprofitquarterly.org/sarbanes-oxley-ten-years-later/

So, if your Council is doing all the bad, nasty things they are rumored to be doing, there's a slew of state and federal laws that require disclosure and/or subject the organization and/it its leadership to civil and criminal penalties.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[PACAN]

I think what @RememberSchiff is saying is that units never see these numbers until after the fact.   The Activity Fee is mandatory vice FOS being voluntary.   Some units are lucky in that their members still have money left after the national fee and unit fees to voluntarily give some more.   In today's world not so much.   Some parents walked away with the $25 extra fee just to join.

A 3-5 year projected  budget might be helpful but never seen one.

With the huge reductions across the board in the BSA, most would want to see a corresponding reduction at their council...not pretty but reality.    They see it possibly in their own paychecks and living expenses and something has got to give.  They see an "always need more" approach.   Throwing an 80% of FOS is spent on program means nothing to the average parent.

 

JMHO

 

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

8 minutes ago, PACAN said:

I think what @RememberSchiff is saying is that units never see these numbers until after the fact.  

Yes, an example, state lobbyists' fees.

I'm old school. I want to know the reason you want my money before I give it to you. Later, I will verify how you spent it.

My $0,02, 

Edited January 13, 2021 by RememberSchiff

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, PACAN said:

I think what @RememberSchiff is saying is that units never see these numbers until after the fact.   The Activity Fee is mandatory vice FOS being voluntary.   Some units are lucky in that their members still have money left after the national fee and unit fees to voluntarily give some more.   In today's world not so much.   Some parents walked away with the $25 extra fee just to join.

A 3-5 year projected  budget might be helpful but never seen one.

With the huge reductions across the board in the BSA, most would want to see a corresponding reduction at their council...not pretty but reality.    They see it possibly in their own paychecks and living expenses and something has got to give.  They see an "always need more" approach.   Throwing an 80% of FOS is spent on program means nothing to the average parent.

JMHO

First, I know of no local not-for-profit that does 3-5 year projections. BSA might as a large national organization, but a local council doing 3-5 YEARS out? No way. Given that membership organizations are notoriously hard to budget for (e.g. associations), I cannot imagine a 3 year projected budget being anything more than mere guesswork and THAT becomes a problem when projections are way, way off. Then everyone gets mad at Council for missing budget targets.

Second, as for reductions, again, all that information is in the 990s. They record total employees (and that number dropping as layoffs happen), reduction in salaries, reduction in revenues. Ironically, the layoffs are making it LESS likely councils can get the message out. I know some councils have advertised/broadcast that they have laid off XX or YY number of staff, but some opt to not make a show of it because a) they have no one to write the council newsletter anymore or b) there's a fear that it sends the "we're dying" message.

[yknot]

5 minutes ago, PACAN said:

I think what @RememberSchiff is saying is that units never see these numbers until after the fact.   The Activity Fee is mandatory vice FOS being voluntary.   Some units are lucky in that their members still have money left after the national fee and unit fees to voluntarily give some more.   In today's world not so much.   Some parents walked away with the $25 extra fee just to join.

A 3-5 year projected  budget might be helpful but never seen one.

With the huge reductions across the board in the BSA, most would want to see a corresponding reduction at their council...not pretty but reality.    They see it possibly in their own paychecks and living expenses and something has got to give.  They see an "always need more" approach.   Throwing an 80% of FOS is spent on program means nothing to the average parent.

 

JMHO

 

 

 

I think a lot of times most of us are also thinking Troop level where we have already been the boiled frog for several years. New parents coming into scouts aren't looking for transparency in terms of 'let me peruse through an inch thick budget'. Their version of transparency, or what they want to know is, 'how much of the money I give you is being spent on my kid' or in some way benefits them. 

[CynicalScouter]

16 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes, an example, state lobbyists' fees.

Which again, required to be disclosed by IRS regulation and state law. 990 Schedule C. Political Campaign and Lobbying Activities.

And state lobbyists have to list who the are lobbying on behalf of.

Here's Texas since 2016. https://www.ethics.state.tx.us/search/lobby/loblistsREG2016-2020.php

And again, if you know when your council's budget is set, have you ever bothered to ask to see the next year's projected budget? As I said, in a good number of states, the "ask" carries with it the requirement of law (they HAVE tell you what the expenditure is for/what the budget is prior to approval).

Then you can call and complain that you don't think it should be spent, but it is still up to the board.

Edited January 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think a lot of times most of us are also thinking Troop level where we have already been the boiled frog for several years. New parents coming into scouts aren't looking for transparency in terms of 'let me peruse through an inch thick budget'. Their version of transparency, or what they want to know is, 'how much of the money I give you is being spent on my kid' or in some way benefits them. 

So then what exactly is the complaint.

"I want the information."

Sure, here it is. As required by law.

"Well, I don't want THAT information."

Etc.

[5thGenTexan]

My Council is making bank on cancellations...

In October I had to bail on Webelos Woods with my own kid because my uncle died due to Covid and the service was that weekend.  Since I didnt request a refund 14 days in advance I had to eat the paid fees.

 

In December we had a Pack campout planned and a couple of days before I got sick and couldnt go.  It was just a cold.  I was the only BALOO trained leader going so since I couldnt go, neither could the Pack.  I made the reservation for the campsite (we have to pay to use Council camps now).  Since the cancellation was less than 14 days I go to eat that one too.  I should have known far in advance I was going to get sick I guess.

 

So, their cancellation / refund policy sucks.  Just another mark in my "I dont want to do this anymore" column.

[yknot]

3 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

My Council is making bank on cancellations...

In October I had to bail on Webelos Woods with my own kid because my uncle died due to Covid and the service was that weekend.  Since I didnt request a refund 14 days in advance I had to eat the paid fees.

 

In December we had a Pack campout planned and a couple of days before I got sick and couldnt go.  It was just a cold.  I was the only BALOO trained leader going so since I couldnt go, neither could the Pack.  I made the reservation for the campsite (we have to pay to use Council camps now).  Since the cancellation was less than 14 days I go to eat that one too.  I should have known far in advance I was going to get sick I guess.

 

So, their cancellation / refund policy sucks.  Just another mark in my "I dont want to do this anymore" column.

This is something I just don't understand about scouting. Almost every other youth organization, other organizations, businesses, are waiving cancellation fees or discounting fees during Covid. For example, no sector has been hit harder than the arts/entertainment sector but I've gotten refunds for every single thing I had tickets to and couldn't get to because of Covid. I will say I have gotten some very nicely worded requests to eschew the refund and consider it a donation which I have sometimes done. 

[yknot]

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

So then what exactly is the complaint.

"I want the information."

Sure, here it is. As required by law.

"Well, I don't want THAT information."

Etc.

I think I was talking more in terms of trying to market the increasing expenses to newer scouts and families. Great if you can access a huge pdf to parse through but I think Councils who want to recruit newer families need to work harder to be more transparent, i.e., act like other organizations and include a pie chart or some other breakdown prepared for you that shows you what you are getting for your investment. If 70% of the Council budget is going towards salaries then I think you have to spell out what those positions do to benefit scouts at the unit level. 

[ParkMan]

52 minutes ago, yknot said:

This is something I just don't understand about scouting. Almost every other youth organization, other organizations, businesses, are waiving cancellation fees or discounting fees during Covid. For example, no sector has been hit harder than the arts/entertainment sector but I've gotten refunds for every single thing I had tickets to and couldn't get to because of Covid. I will say I have gotten some very nicely worded requests to eschew the refund and consider it a donation which I have sometimes done. 

I suspect that if we look around the country, most councils are acting like the othe non-profits you describe. 

I know that our council is absolutely trying to do the right thing. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by ParkMan
clarified a thought

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I think I was talking more in terms of trying to market the increasing expenses to newer scouts and families. Great if you can access a huge pdf to parse through but I think Councils who want to recruit newer families need to work harder to be more transparent, i.e., act like other organizations and include a pie chart or some other breakdown prepared for you that shows you what you are getting for your investment. If 70% of the Council budget is going towards salaries then I think you have to spell out what those positions do to benefit scouts at the unit level. 

The problem that councils have with any of these sorts of discussions is that it is very difficult for a council to show value to an individual Scout.  Scout executives, district executives, and mich of the staff are focused on sustaining the council.  The money that a scout pays in terms of fees almost entirely goes to pay for amorphous things like DE salaries or office expenses or depreciation of equipment.  Very little of that has any tangible benefit to youth.

My recommendation has been that councils need to establish two different parts of their budget. One part pays for is funded by big donors and has a professional fundraising staff.  This is the part of the budget that should pay for growth and membership activities.  Let the big donors recognize that they are writing big checks to help grow scouting.

The other part of the budget is the directly applicable stuff to kids.  Make it clear that fees at camp or camp improvements or the district camporee are made possible because of council fees.

Edited January 13, 2021 by ParkMan
clarified a thought

[yknot]

22 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I suspect that if we look around the country, most councils are acting like the othe non-profits you describe. 

I know that our council is absolutely trying to do the right thing. 

I'm not so sure. Do you have any examples of Councils cutting fees? Most I know of either held fees or increased fees this year. I also haven't heard of any units refunding fees or offering discounts. 

Also, our Council is trying to do the right thing as far as staying afloat and holding onto a camp property, but that means charging more at a time when services are reduced. 

[yknot]

12 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

The problem that councils have with any of these sorts of discussions is that it is very difficult for a council to show value to an individual Scout.  Scout executives, district executives, and mich of the staff are focused on sustaining the council.  The money that a scout pays in terms of fees almost entirely goes to pay for amorphous things like DE salaries or office expenses or depreciation of equipment.  Very little of that has any tangible benefit to youth.

My recommendation has been that councils need to establish two different parts of their budget. One part pays for is funded by big donors and has a professional fundraising staff.  This is the part of the budget that should pay for growth and membership activities.  Let the big donors recognize that they are writing big checks to help grow scouting.

The other part of the budget is the directly applicable stuff to kids.  Make it clear that fees at camp or camp improvements or the district camporee are made possible because of council fees.

I think that's the nut of the funding problem. Councils have a hard time showing benefit to youth. All people see is what looks like bloated overhead. 

[MikeS72]

6 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

My Council is making bank on cancellations...

In October I had to bail on Webelos Woods with my own kid because my uncle died due to Covid and the service was that weekend.  Since I didnt request a refund 14 days in advance I had to eat the paid fees.

 

In December we had a Pack campout planned and a couple of days before I got sick and couldnt go.  It was just a cold.  I was the only BALOO trained leader going so since I couldnt go, neither could the Pack.  I made the reservation for the campsite (we have to pay to use Council camps now).  Since the cancellation was less than 14 days I go to eat that one too.  I should have known far in advance I was going to get sick I guess.

 

So, their cancellation / refund policy sucks.  Just another mark in my "I dont want to do this anymore" column.

In normal times our council also has a deadline for refund requests, after which there are no refunds.  These are not normal times, and that policy has been suspended since we were able to return to limited in person activity.  If a scout registered for summer camp and got sick the day before, his/her money was refunded.  Same with our OA lodge activities.

University of Scouting is coming up shortly, and is being offered at no cost this year.  Any district events we offer, such as Webelos Woods or camporee are also at no cost, due to the new council activity fee.  While I was not thrilled with the idea of a council activity fee, at least here they have taken the money and basically done away with fees for most training (reduced fees for Woodbadge) and for all district events.