Who enforces the BSA rules when a scoutmaster breaks them?

[OLDRIFLE]

On 8/28/2020 at 9:52 PM, MattR said:

Welcome to the forum, @OLDRIFLE.

That's a really tough question. You can ask your District Executive or your chartered org rep. I hate to say this but you can also look for another troop.

Thanks for your reply. It is sad that no one had the courage to step up and correct the SM, not even at Council level. 

[OLDRIFLE]

On 8/28/2020 at 10:29 PM, CynicalScouter said:

What specifically are they violating? Adding? Subtracting? Etc.

Since you indicate that the Key-3 are "OK with that", then depending on the advancement rule the answer is going to either by the district executive or council advancement (or both).

The SM, and all the unit leaders support this, requires that for the Eagle Scout Rank the scout must be actives the last 6 months. The Advancement Guide specifically states that the six months active requirement does not have to be continuous. District and council have not wanted to take action on this matter after being asked for help.   

[OLDRIFLE]

On 8/29/2020 at 6:43 AM, qwazse said:

Your district and/or council advancement chairperson would be the next person to talk to.

If this involves applying for Eagle there are formal procedures if the troop is denying the scout a board of review. The other issues will involve polite conversations with your troop’s key 3.

The troop ignored the request for a SM conference for 2.5 months. Then the SM required a continuous six months active period contrary to what the Advancement Guide states that it does not has to be and the scout can "patch up" the six months active period. After the SM setting a date 3.5 months after being requested, the council  said that it was OK since the SM was not refusing the SM conference. The council did not even recognized that the SM was wrong by requiring the continuous six-months requirement.

[OLDRIFLE]

On 8/31/2020 at 8:55 AM, SSScout said:

""If possible"" . . . Keep good notes. Document episodes.   Have you spoken with other Scout parents/Scouts?   Have others seen/heard/experienced similar events?   

My suggestions for order to pursue:::

1)  Troop Key Three ( COR,  Committee Chair,   Scoutmaster) and Committee.    Polite conversation, show them the BSA Advancement Guide, G2SS,  Brian on Scouting, this website.... whatever is germane.     Involve the IH  lastly ....    Smile and wave...

2)  Assigned Unit Commissioner.   Conversation, do you HAVE one....   Perhaps your interpretation is incorrect?   Make sure....Discuss general Troop/Scout culture.  Is the particular situation indicative of other problems?  Personal personnel issues?  Egoes involved?  

3)  District Advancement Chair....   Has this happened before locally?   Ramifications for the Scout's (Scouts' ) future?  Record keeping? 

4)  Council  Advancement chair?  Council's attitude will be that this is a "local" issue.  IH and COR have jurisdiction unless there are serious YP issues.   Keep things on a  polite, factual  level. 

Good Scouting to you.   If enough parents/Scouts see the same problems,  and several  express reason to  "jump ship" to another unit,  the message might get thru......

 

 

 

     

Thanks for your advice. Unfortunately, the facts of the Advancement Guide had been presented to all levels including to council but they have decided not to intervene. It involves the six-months active requirement were the Advancement Guide establishes that it does not requires to be continuous but the SM requires it to be so. On top of that, the scout has been requesting a SM conference for 2.5 months, the SM ignoring the requests and finally the SM gave a date for a month later while performing SM conferences to other scouts that requested the conference within weeks. The council said that it was OK since the SM has "not refused" the SM conference. So, if a SM decides to perform a SM conference 6 or 12 months after being requested, he is not refusing? I am really disappointed with the whole Scouting staff after 7 years of active involvement.

[OLDRIFLE]

18 hours ago, ShootingSports said:

The Charter Org. Rep (COR) is responsible for the leadership of the Troop.  While I would go to the district first and ask about any issues, the ultimate person to decide on leadership is the COR.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Unfortunately, we have reached to all levels, including the council, with all the data and rules with no results. 

[OLDRIFLE]

17 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Politely, give the Chartering organization a reasonable time under the circumstances to  cause the SM to follow the rules.  If that fails, find another troop that follows the rules if one exists. 

Neither BSA nor the council is at all likely to do anything, regardless of the Scout Law.  See Eric Hoffer - the three stages of a great cause.

Unfortunately, you sir are right. There was no help from no one at unit, council or  district level and the scout was to suffer the consequences of a delayed Eagle Scout rank. I just wanted things to be done "by the book" . Now the scout will not be able to include his Eagle Scout rank for his university applications.

[OLDRIFLE]

16 hours ago, yknot said:

All our CO does is provide us with space and benign support. It's a church with an aging and declining congregation. All they know is that we meet in the basement. We avoid bothering them for anything. If we asked them to get involved in anything like this they would be incredulous lol.

 

That is a though spot. But at least you know were you are and can deal with it.

[qwazse]

Sorry the chips didn’t fall your scout’s way.

But you are a greater victim of a propaganda machine that makes people think Eagle Scout is a “must have” on a scout’s application. It isn’t. Star and Life scouts get accepted to college at the same rate. It is more important on college essays to describe one’s leadership experience or how one overcame a trial, be it in scouting, school, or family life.

Should a young man who has already applied to college work on Eagle? Of course! It flags to many employers that one pursued a goal for 7 years.

Furthermore, I encourage scouts like this to not merely mark time. They should earn merit badges and rack up insta-palms during these relatively minor delays.

Edited September 5, 2020 by qwazse

[David CO]

4 hours ago, OLDRIFLE said:

The troop ignored the request for a SM conference for 2.5 months. Then the SM required a continuous six months active period contrary to what the Advancement Guide states that it does not has to be and the scout can "patch up" the six months active period. After the SM setting a date 3.5 months after being requested, the council  said that it was OK since the SM was not refusing the SM conference. The council did not even recognized that the SM was wrong by requiring the continuous six-months requirement.

A lot of us are playing it pretty loose with the six month requirement during the epidemic and shutdown.  What does it mean to be active during a shutdown?  I don't know.  This is new territory for all of us.  

I wouldn't complain about a SM who isn't doing conferences during a shutdown.  Particularly if the SM has underlying health conditions that would make him a high risk for coronavirus.  

[Navybone]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

A lot of us are playing it pretty loose with the six month requirement during the epidemic and shutdown.  What does it mean to be active during a shutdown?  I don't know.  This is new territory for all of us.  

I wouldn't complain about a SM who isn't doing conferences during a shutdown.  Particularly if the SM has underlying health conditions that would make him a high risk for coronavirus.  

We have been very successful conducting SM conferences and BoR using zoom and other platforms.   While not perfect, These events are not required to be conducted in person.   We can still provide an outlet to Scouts who are motivated or looking for an activity during the period.   Our experience has been positive, from the scouts and their parents. 

[Owls_are_cool]

The best way to solve this problem is to transfer to another troop that approves this requirement correctly. Your scout better have good documentation on how he was active for 6 months...continuous or discontinuous, because new scoutmaster will have nothing to go by. But if your scout attends meetings and activities with the new troop, that will give the new scoutmaster confidence that your scout completed the requirement with the previous troop. 

Being active in a troop is a judgement call for the scoutmaster and we do not have his side of the story. I, myself, got into hot water with some adults associated with my troop, because they deemed I signed off of requirements too easily. All this stemmed from their judgement that a scout was not eagle worthy. Such conflicts can easily set a bad adult example for scouts, so I would do the troop transfer route instead of escalating this conflict. 

Hope it all ends well for your scout.

[yknot]

A few random thoughts:

Wouldn't your scout fall under the extension option if COVID has affected his timeline and he is close to aging out before getting Eagle? 

I'm aware of some cases similar to this and the real issue was that while a scout may have held the position for X amount of time, it was in name only and they did not actually do anything in the role. The SM, with the backing of others, might actually be using the delays as a stick to get the scout to actually fulfill leadership in a leadership role. However, in such times as COVID,  even if this is possible, it really seems a lot of leeway has to be given if scouts have been unable to meet this. I also know of units where there has been similar push back, right or wrong, when a scout has attempted to piece together the requirement vs. meeting it continuously. In my experience, it has usually been a conflict between the anti-sports scouters, who see it as a scout cherry picking roles at his or her convenience to accommodate sports schedules while the "real" scouts are perceived as being more committed. 

Finally, in some of the cases around here, parents have had success hiring a lawyer to send a letter or threaten to get a lawyer involved.  It's a nuclear option but I can tell you from observation it does work remarkably well in getting you what you want because most volunteers don't want to be embroiled in a lawsuit.  

[CynicalScouter]

12 hours ago, OLDRIFLE said:

 District and council have not wanted to take action on this matter after being asked for help.   

"Have not wanted to take action" meaning what? I feel like perhaps we are not getting the entire story here.

If you have asked for your council to review, is it that they disagreed with your interpretation and sided with the SM's or they simply said nothing?

As other said, if you really truly think this, then get it in writing from Council/your Scout Executive, forward to National, and ask for an Eagle review by national. You may have to speak with a lawyer.

[PACAN]

@OLDRIFLE...I'm assuming you are the scout in question.

I assume you have been a Life Scout for more than 6 months.  I sat on an Eagle appeal board where the unit wanted the scout to do exactly what your SM wanted and we overturned the unit.

Does your troop have written expectations for the active time?

Was your POR completed already or is it also in dispute?

Formally send your SM an email  request for SM Conference and info the world.  Ask to have a response in 7 days.  If you get nothing, write up all your Eagle paperwork and submit it to council requesting an EBOR under disputed circumstances. GTA 8.0.3.2 based on your belief you have met all the BSA requirements.

JMHO. 

 

[TMSM]

 

15 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

"Have not wanted to take action" meaning what? I feel like perhaps we are not getting the entire story here.

I agree we are not getting the full story. Council reps will go to bat for any scout if SM is not following the rules.  My guess is that K3 has a definition of "active" and the scout has not met that threshold. The reason the SM is holding back the conference is because the scout has not met the active qualification. 

You need to put together a weekly timeline where you felt  you were active and non-active and then ask for 5 minutes of the SMs time, go over this and get a better idea what you are missing, if the SM demands that 6 months are continuos get it in writing. The send your timeline and the SM insistance that you follow a modified rule.