Mic o say article

[yknot]

I've been trying to understand this issue and while I am totally disgusted with the idea that wearing some article of clothing or putting some kind of makeup on your face (the latest bizarre problem is "fox eyes" in women) is cultural appropriation, I can see people having a problem with things strongly associated with their religion or culture. For example, I'd have a problem if some youth organization suddenly decided to dress up in bishop's mitres and dance around with shepherd's staffs to the tune of Ave Maria... 

[qwazse]

8 hours ago, David CO said:

The sight of me belly dancing would instantly show the flaw in your argument.  EVERYONE would protest!

Yeah, my uncles and aunts would throw their weight around as well. As individuals, even though they were fully dressed, it was not a great look, but ensemble ... truly beautiful. (Yes, even a conservative family who would never bare midriffs learned a few moves.)

8 hours ago, David CO said:

How do you feel about the Shriners?

Love the Shriners! So, in town they had a clubhouse called the Syria Mosque. (Look it up sometime.) Classic 19th century brick, some of which was fired in relief with Arabic script around the eves. Folks always had a laugh explaining it to the devout looking for Friday prayers!  They relocated and built a larger building, albeit with a less ornate exterior. But, they sold the old building by getting two divisions of the same company in a bidding war. I still imagine those guys in their go carts weaving down 5th Avenue all the way to the bank! The old building was demolished and turned into a parking lot. The decorative brick was sold and can be found in various private gardens.

I never met an Arab who, learning about the Shriners, was offended by them using Arabic/Turkish history and culture to do good work.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I've been trying to understand this issue and while I am totally disgusted with the idea that wearing some article of clothing or putting some kind of makeup on your face (the latest bizarre problem is "fox eyes" in women) is cultural appropriation, I can see people having a problem with things strongly associated with their religion or culture. For example, I'd have a problem if some youth organization suddenly decided to dress up in bishop's mitres and dance around with shepherd's staffs to the tune of Ave Maria... 

Yes, but you admitted in an earlier thread that you don't understand or care for the scouting uniform either, so you would likely struggle with any reasoning for group uniform in scouts. Honor from any tradition values requires respect. If one isn't willing to start with respect, how can they even conceive principles that are the foundation of the values? As for "their religious culture", are any Christians calling out christian Native Americans?

Barry

[yknot]

34 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but you admitted in an earlier thread that you don't understand or care for the scouting uniform either, so you would likely struggle with any reasoning for group uniform in scouts. Honor from any tradition values requires respect. If one isn't willing to start with respect, how can they even conceive principles that are the foundation of the values? As for "their religious culture", are any Christians calling out christian Native Americans?

Barry

My issue with the scout uniform is that it is outdated, does not align with function, and is of poor value and quality -- all problems that are related to the fact that its development has been driven more by marketing than utility or purpose. It's neither field uniform or parade uniform. If you go back to the early handbooks, most of the then scout uniform was based on function and economy. We have gotten very far away from that. But I really don't see how that relates to whether scouts should be wearing ceremonial garb. Native American regalia has never been considered a uniform. 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

As for "their religious culture", are any Christians calling out Christian Native Americans?

Barry

Of course not.  Why would they?  

This issue is not about Native Americans who practice a Christian religion.  Nor is it about non Native Americans who practice a Native American religion.  Nobody is talking about people's right to choose their religion.

This issue is about people who do not practice a Native American religion, but like to dress up and imitate the rituals.  Native Americans are right to feel that their traditional clothing is not a costume, and that their religious rituals are not a game.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by David CO

[Eagledad]

25 minutes ago, yknot said:

My issue with the scout uniform is that it is outdated, does not align with function, and is of poor value and quality -- all problems that are related to the fact that its development has been driven more by marketing than utility or purpose. It's neither field uniform or parade uniform. If you go back to the early handbooks, most of the then scout uniform was based on function and economy. 

I will be glad to have this discussion in a different topic because I wore my dads scout uniform in the 70s that he wore in the 40s. I have experience of your opinion.

27 minutes ago, yknot said:

 We have gotten very far away from that. But I really don't see how that relates to whether scouts should be wearing ceremonial garb. Native American regalia has never been considered a uniform. 

Garb, Uniform, Field, call it what you want, it's part of the scouting program. At least their part.

I think your key word here is "I". Did you even research Mic o say? I mean the purpose of the program and philosophy behind the "Garb". Along with OA, discipline of making and wearing the custom develops and understanding and respect for the culture and cultural values.

We live in a heavily populated state of Native Americans and I have never heard one say they felt disrespected by the Scouts. In fact, they felt honored that their culture was given as an example of the best of character. But we live in a time of activism, so I am not surprise of  anyone being offended anymore.

Barry

 

[David CO]

4 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

 

We live in a heavily populated state of Native Americans and I have never heard one say they felt disrespected by the Scouts.

 

You have got to be kidding.  Our camp was right next to a reservation.  We heard it all the time.

 

[Eagledad]

36 minutes ago, David CO said:

Of course not.  Why would they?  

This issue is not about Native Americans who practice a Christian religion.  Nor is it about non Native Americans who practice a Native American religion.  Nobody is talking about people's right to choose their religion.

This issue is about people who do not practice a Native American religion, but like to dress up and imitate the rituals.  Native Americans are right to feel that their traditional clothing is not a costume, and that their religious rituals are not a game.

 

Religious choices? It's not about religion, it's about culture.Should non Native Americans be offended with Native Americans square dance or clog? Are you not a hypocrite if you aren't offended. When you start down those cliffs of slippery slops, you can't stop. 

Barry

22 minutes ago, David CO said:

You have got to be kidding.  Our camp was right next to a reservation.  We heard it all the time.

 

Ummmm, so!

Edited August 12, 2020 by Eagledad

[yknot]

48 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I will be glad to have this discussion in a different topic because I wore my dads scout uniform in the 70s that he wore in the 40s. I have experience of your opinion.

Garb, Uniform, Field, call it what you want, it's part of the scouting program. At least their part.

I think your key word here is "I". Did you even research Mic o say? I mean the purpose of the program and philosophy behind the "Garb". Along with OA, discipline of making and wearing the custom develops and understanding and respect for the culture and cultural values.

We live in a heavily populated state of Native Americans and I have never heard one say they felt disrespected by the Scouts. In fact, they felt honored that their culture was given as an example of the best of character. But we live in a time of activism, so I am not surprise of  anyone being offended anymore.

Barry

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Your experience is based on what you did in the 70s. There are a lot of people trying to make scouting work for families in the 2020s and the uniform is an issue as is the wearing of Native American regalia. I think you interpret a desire to be more relevant as being disrespectful, but that's not what it is.  

To me, making uniforms more economical and practical for current scouts is essential, and dropping practices that make most Millennial age families cringe is a no brainer. The military updates uniforms constantly based on better fabrics, fit, etc., with no lack of respect for tradition. Native American regalia has always been an interesting feature of scouts but it has little to do with its core. A chunk of the early handbooks were dedicated to horsemanship. Those skills were essential then but no longer because no one leads cavalry charges anymore. BP was a dedicated horseman and cavalryman and he often wore jodhpurs. At some point, though, he quit wearing them because... well... times changed.  

 

[fred8033]

50 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

We live in a heavily populated state of Native Americans and I have never heard one say they felt disrespected by the Scouts. In fact, they felt honored that their culture was given as an example of the best of character. But we live in a time of activism, so I am not surprise of  anyone being offended anymore.

I agree in that I think the use of Indian lore teaches our scouts many things in many directions.  It also raises awareness of the native american cultures.  ... BUT ... when it's used as a weapon against us, it's time to ditch it.  We will have lost something special, but we lose far more in perception and membership if we keep it.

[Eagledad]

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Your experience is based on what you did in the 70s. There are a lot of people trying to make scouting work for families in the 2020s and the uniform is an issue as is the wearing of Native American regalia. I think you interpret a desire to be more relevant as being disrespectful, but that's not what it is.  

 

You are crossing two different subjects, my example of uniform of the 1940s, 1970s and 2020 has nothing to do with a my opinion of using Native American lore in the program. 

Barry

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I agree in that I think the use of Indian lore teaches our scouts many things in many directions.  It also raises awareness of the native american cultures.  ... BUT ... when it's used as a weapon against us, it's time to ditch it.  We will have lost something special, but we lose far more in perception and membership if we keep it.

Maybe, but is there anything scouting can use for developing character that wouldn't be offensive to somebody. Even reverent is offensive to some here. At some point the Oath and Law will be changed and the pledge of allegiance discouraged. 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

The latest hurt feeling over "cultural appropriation, is female non-Asians using makeup to make their eyes look elongated - slanted.  The "fox-eye" trend

The Stanford Forum out on la la land decries such "Unapologetic cultural appropriation"  CNN: "The 'fox eye' beauty trend continues to spread online. But critics insist it's racist"

 

Mexican food fairs at colleges are similarly denounced - for the food and the music.

Can Italian use of noodles, invented in China, be far behind?

"Marcelled" hair, Reverend Sharpton?  Cornrows on White females?

White women claiming to be Black so they can be elected head of NAACP chapters?("I identify as Black.")

The "0"  -   invented in India?

Curry?

Scotch made outside Scotland?

Use of "Thursday" - named for the God Thor - for the fifth day of the week ?  Woden'sday?  

 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

... This issue is about people who do not practice a Native American religion, but like to dress up and imitate the rituals.  Native Americans are right to feel that their traditional clothing is not a costume, and that their religious rituals are not a game.

So, once an Imam tried to call me out for saying "Peace Be With You ..." in Arabic because I was a Christian. I cracked open my Arabic New Testament and showed him the verse where the Angel Gabriel gives Mary the same greeting. He tried to claim that my scripture was corrupted. I asked him to show me where in his scripture it says that mine is corrupted (spoiler: it doesn't). I then asked him where in his scripture does it say that non-Muslims couldn't use the standard greeting (spoiler: nowhere). Of the hundreds of Muslims from beggars to sheikhs who I've met since then, none has objected to appropriating this little bit of Islamic culture (and I have told scholars about my encounter with this one Imam). In fact most were very pleased when non-Muslims made the effort.

Should I avoid honoring the hundreds for the sake of the one?

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

... We live in a heavily populated state of Native Americans and I have never heard one say they felt disrespected by the Scouts. In fact, they felt honored that their culture was given as an example of the best of character.  ...

 

1 hour ago, David CO said:

You have got to be kidding.  Our camp was right next to a reservation.  We heard it all the time.

It's a big country. Nobody even in a single clan (let alone tribe) is going to approach this with the same sentiment. That's why I rate each of these articles on how often tribal elders get quoted. They have a long view and offer insights.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the Mic-O-Say folks have done more homework than the bloggers.

Edited August 12, 2020 by qwazse

[Chisos]

11 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Scotch made outside Scotland?

 

I think Mike Myers already addressed this, on Saturday Night Live.