Law Suits; And Now It Spreads

[CynicalScouter]

47 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I do see those ads against the BSA, 3M, generic personal injury, etc.  But never CPS.

There are civil attorneys and there are ambulance chasers, we all know the difference.

That is because many of those cases are class-action and the claimants have until a set time (BSA = November) in order to get their claims in or they lose the ability to file in the future.

And the difference between civil attorney and "ambulance chaser" seems to be "I like the plaintiff" or "I dislike the defendant."

FYI: the number of civil lawsuits has collapsed in the last decade. You know what the vast, vast, VAST majority of civil litigation is?

Contract cases (and in particular debt collection and landlord/tenant). Not torts.

Quote

 

High-value tort and commercial contract disputes are the predominant focus of contemporary debates, but collectively they comprised only a small proportion of the Landscape caseload. In contrast, nearly two-thirds (64%) were contract cases, and more than half of those were debt collection (37%) and landlord/tenant cases (29%). An additional sixteen percent (16%) were small claims cases involving disputes valued at $12,000 or less and nine percent (9%) were characterized as “other civil” cases involving agency appeals and domestic or criminal-related cases. Only seven percent (7%) were tort cases and one percent (1%) were real property cases.

To the extent that damage awards recorded in the final judgment are a reliable measure of the monetary value of civil cases, the cases in the dataset involved relatively modest sums. Despite widespread perceptions that civil litigation involves high-value commercial and tort cases, only 357 cases (0.2%) had judgments that exceeded $500,000 and only 165 cases (less than 0.1%) had judgments that exceeded $1 million. Instead, three-quarters (75%) of all judgments were less than $5,200. These values varied somewhat based on case type; three-quarters of real property judgments, for example, were less than $106,000 and three-quarters of torts were less than $12,200. For most represented litigants, the costs of litigating a case through trial would greatly exceed the monetary value of the case. In some instances, the costs of even initiating the lawsuit or making an appearance as a defendant would exceed the value of the case.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

19 minutes ago, elitts said:

Chicago might be something of an exception.  I'd guess that the history of rampant political abuse and corruption there has left the population a little more numb than places that didn't have a R. Daley in their past.

In Chicago, you're happy just to have survived the day without having been the victim of a drive-by shooting.

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by David CO

[walk in the woods]

34 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And the difference between civil attorney and "ambulance chaser" seems to be "I like the plaintiff" or "I dislike the defendant."

Nah, more like the difference between being a pro and being a dog trolling for the misfortunate to exploit them.

"In a wreck and need a check?  Lxxxxx and Rxxx are the lawyers for you!  Call 222 22 22!"

 

 

[walk in the woods]

40 minutes ago, David CO said:

In Chicago, you're happy just to have survived the day without having been the victim of a drive-by shooting.

 

Every time I drive down there.

[John-in-KC]

Moderator note

please stay on topic. 

[RememberSchiff]

In our Chapter 11 case, I saw this docket which included the details of an individual injury liability settlement with a council and its insurer.  The volunteer who drove golf cart that hit claimant?

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/841156_1123.pdf

Edited August 20, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[fred8033]

On 8/7/2020 at 2:17 PM, walk in the woods said:

Nah, Chicago Public Schools have been in the news for two years now after a Tribune investigation exposed the amount of sexual abuse being covered up.  The new bureaucracy created filed over 450 reports in 2019, https://news.wttw.com/2020/01/06/cps-watchdog-opened-450-new-sexual-misconduct-investigations-2019.  Now many of those weren't substantiated but many were.  The school district isn't being pursued by a hoard of ambulance chasers to my knowledge.

This article explains why I am not as upset with BSA as others.  The above cases are from 2019 !!!!!!  Two decades after SCHOOL mandatory reporting laws.  At least a decade after the nationwide law suits started.  Happening with professionals who's job is to teach our kids.  One school district had 450 reported in one year.  Only 130 of the 450 had completed investigations.  36 resulting in end of employment.  300+ not investigated yet and 100 not substantiated.  Imagine looking at those 400 cases 50 years later after most people are gone ... the organization would be liable for damages on something you can't defend and using laws and liability that was not on the books yet.  ... but I suspect we can't find paperwork / documentation to trigger the lawsuits as a tracking path was not kept from years ago.

BSA was far from perfect ... as were ALL organizations ... but it had a reporting process ... and tried to track people ... and people were often notified that the person should not be re-registered.  I'm further betting that many of these cases were not perused by law enforcement at the time.  I'm also betting many parents and involved people choose not to pursue. 

If BSA can't be held up as trying to do it's best ... who can ?   If BSA is going to be destroyed by the past being judged by today's standards, all organizations, cities and government groups should be forced into bankruptcy.  

Edited August 20, 2020 by fred8033

[David CO]

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

BSA was far from perfect ... as were ALL organizations ... but it had a reporting process ... and tried to track people ... and people were often notified that the person should not be re-registered.  I'm further betting that many of these cases were not perused by law enforcement at the time.  I'm also betting many parents and involved people choose not to pursue. 

If BSA can't be held up as trying to do it's best ... who can ?   If BSA is going to be destroyed by the past being judged by today's standards, all organizations, cities and government groups should be forced into bankruptcy.  

I strongly disagree.  BSA did not try to do their best.  They did a horrible thing, and there is no excuse or justification for their behavior.  None whatsoever.  There are claimants and lawyers whose intent is to have BSA dissolved.  I can't entirely blame them.  They hear scouters defending the indefensible, and conclude that BSA not learned its lesson.  

 

[fred8033]

16 minutes ago, David CO said:

I strongly disagree.  BSA did not try to do their best.  They did a horrible thing, and there is no excuse or justification for their behavior.  None whatsoever.  There are claimants and lawyers whose intent is to have BSA dissolved.  I can't entirely blame them.  They hear scouters defending the indefensible, and conclude that BSA not learned its lesson.  

We'll have to disagree.  No one is defending the indefensible.  This is about being realistic and comparing to other similar organizations at the same time.  If BSA is to be hit so hard, then perhaps the better answer is to tax every home owner $10,000 and create a fund to payback for all the past occurrences through schools, police, sports, etc and handle this all at once.  This was not a single organization.  This was a societal issue. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by fred8033

[yknot]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

We'll have to disagree.  No one is defending the indefensible.  This is about being realistic and comparing to other similar organizations at the same time.  If BSA is to be hit so hard, then perhaps the better answer is to tax every home owner $10,000 and create a fund to payback for all the past occurrences through schools, police, sports, etc and handle this all at once.  This was not a single organization.  This was a societal issue. 

I often agree with your viewpoints but this is one where I can't. I have heard this argument before as well from the Catholic Church. That it's the media attention and political interests that are at fault and not the organization. But both BSA and the Catholic Church are in very different positions than schools or sports. None of those other groups ever held themselves up as bastions of morality and character and trust. In both scouting and the church, we allowed monsters to cloak themselves in the respect that our organizations conferred within the community and it allowed them to operate. We also often did not want to fully face or root it out ourselves. We still do this today. I still see people being reluctant to speak out about some odd person or action despite all the YPT training and publicity.  Our responsibility is greater because our calling was higher by our own words.  There is no defense for this. If children were not safe in any other setting, they should have been safe under the care of scouting and the church and they were not. I realize others will see it differently, but that's how I see it. That's why I have such a hard time with it. 

[fred8033]

7 hours ago, yknot said:

I often agree with your viewpoints but this is one where I can't. I have heard this argument before as well from the Catholic Church. That it's the media attention and political interests that are at fault and not the organization. But both BSA and the Catholic Church are in very different positions than schools or sports. None of those other groups ever held themselves up as bastions of morality and character and trust. In both scouting and the church, we allowed monsters to cloak themselves in the respect that our organizations conferred within the community and it allowed them to operate. We also often did not want to fully face or root it out ourselves. We still do this today. I still see people being reluctant to speak out about some odd person or action despite all the YPT training and publicity.  Our responsibility is greater because our calling was higher by our own words.  There is no defense for this. If children were not safe in any other setting, they should have been safe under the care of scouting and the church and they were not. I realize others will see it differently, but that's how I see it. That's why I have such a hard time with it. 

I'd argue the same can be said of doctors, police, school principals, teachers, coaches, protestant pastors, etc.  

[ParkMan]

We need to remember that the BSA is kids participating in Scouting.  All these things we do - whether it is parents volunteering or professionals getting paid - are adult making it possible for kids to Scout.

What was done by adults to abuse children was and always will be reprehensible.  But punishing or trying to destroy the BSA has a negative impact of the kids of today.  Look at how much damage these lawsuits have done to to Scouting program.  Look at how many fewer kids have been able to benefit from Scouting.  

I think discussions of whether the BSA should or should not be punished always misunderstand that core fact.  This isn't a case of someone trying to punish a private corporation.  I still believe that the government should appoint and inspector general to oversee adherence to youth protection best practices and to ensure that anyone who abuses youth is severely punished.  In return, the government should establish a victims fund.  This should cover similar organisations to the BSA that had the same issues.

[David CO]

57 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

We need to remember that the BSA is kids participating in Scouting. 

No.  BSA is a corporation that profits off of kids participating in scouting.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Look at how many fewer kids have been able to benefit from Scouting.

Yes, the numbers have gone down.  That's because fewer kids want to participate.  It's not because fewer kids are able to participate.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

I still believe that the government should appoint and inspector general to oversee adherence to youth protection best practices and to ensure that anyone who abuses youth is severely punished.  In return, the government should establish a victims fund.  This should cover similar organisations to the BSA that had the same issues.

I don't think government should run everything.  More government control isn't the answer.  Personal responsibility is the answer.  With responsibility comes accountability.  BSA should be held accountable for its actions.

Edited August 21, 2020 by David CO