Scout Kayak / Paddle Board trip

[Mikey52971]

We are planning a trip with the scouts / Families for a kayak / paddle board trip.

2 hours on a lake. the questions is, does each scout need to be a classified swimmer if we are going to a professional run site and will have a certified Guide?

It is not a BSA site but the troop is organizing the trip for the scouts so i think that makes it a BSA event.

[RememberSchiff]

@Mikey52971  on behalf of the moderators of scouter.com, welcome.

[Eagle94-A1]

If this is a Scouting trip, then EVERYONE (emphasis), Scouts, parents, and siblings must follow Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat rules. 

 Since everyone will be solo in a kayak or paddleboard, YES EVERYONE INCLUDING PARENTS AND SIBLINGS MUST BE CLASSIFIED AS A SWIMMER! ( bold and caps are emphasis).

It does not matter whether it is a BSA outfitter or not. If your troop is putting it on you MUST follow Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat.

 

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/toc/

 

 

[Mikey52971]

Thank you Eagle94-A1

So now my question is, we have new scouts that just crossed over and due to covid, we haven't gone to summer camp, so where would adults and scouts be classified as swimmers?

I was thinking that this is a place where the scouts could go with their parents and wouldn't need to be classified. and since all scouters would be with their parent, that it wouldn't be needed.

now im not sure what to do if they must be. any ideas on how scouts and parent would get classified?

[yknot]

I have to second Eagle 94. Doesn't matter if parents are there, if it's a scout trip -- meaning the troop is in any way involved with this event happening -- you have to follow BSA guidelines. I think the only way to get around it would be to switch it to a two person canoe or kayak trip and then if I recall you can pair a nonswimmer -- meaning non tested -- with someone who has passed the BSA swim test. Someone here will correct me if I'm wrong on that. 

Interestingly, on another thread we've just had a long discussion about where and under what conditions the BSA swimmer test can be administered. 

[TMSM]

Why not test them when you arrive? The SM can sign off on this. 

Its important to note that if they fail they go home. 

The other option is to find a scout friendly pool - hotel, private or lake where you could pre-test

 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Mikey52971 said:

 

I was thinking that this is a place where the scouts could go with their parents and wouldn't need to be classified. and since all scouters would be with their parent, that it wouldn't be needed.

 

I am not going to just dismiss your "thinking" out of hand,  but you will need to add some justification for your reasoning.   If this is a scouting event, you will need to do the testing.  No question about that.  Are you thinking that this is not a scouting event?

Is it being organized and publicized at the unit meetings?

Is the unit paying for it?

Are you getting a group discount?

Are the scouters supervising the event?

My school participates in an after school roller skating event that is not a school sponsored activity.  It's just a fundraiser.  The school gets a percentage of whatever the kids spend at the roller rink.  The roller rink gets to promote their business and the school gets a donation. The school doesn't organize, supervise, or transport students for the event.  We also do a similar thing with a couple fast food restaurants. Is this what you are doing?

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by David CO

[mashmaster]

28 minutes ago, TMSM said:

Why not test them when you arrive? The SM can sign off on this. 

Its important to note that if they fail they go home. 

The other option is to find a scout friendly pool - hotel, private or lake where you could pre-test

 

Scoutmaster can't sign off I believe it is someone that has the proper aquatics certification.

Most lifeguards at public pools can conduct and sign off on swim tests.

[TMSM]

16 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Scoutmaster can't sign off I believe it is someone that has the proper aquatics certification.

I know thats true for most summer camps but I believe the unit leader can administer the test using SSD guidelines for other outings.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, Mikey52971 said:

Thank you Eagle94-A1

So now my question is, we have new scouts that just crossed over and due to covid, we haven't gone to summer camp, so where would adults and scouts be classified as swimmers?

Any adult with Safe Swim Defense (SSD) training (which is online) can administer the test. Plus that training is required to do any aquatics activity. Personally I would want a certified Lifeguard of any age or anyone of any age with the Aquatics Supervision Safe Swimming there as well. I would say 95% of all of my rescues I have ever done were during swim tests. Someone with actual water training is a must IMHO.

And since this is a boating activity, Safety Afloat is needed as well, which is also online. EDITED: But I would prefer some folks, Scout or adult, with kayaking experience, including rescues be present too.

Quote

I was thinking that this is a place where the scouts could go with their parents and wouldn't need to be classified. and since all scouters would be with their parent, that it wouldn't be needed.

NO. Not only do the Scouts need to be classified, but every parent and sibling present must take a swim test. 

 

Quote

now im not sure what to do if they must be. any ideas on how scouts and parent would get classified?

Some of the things I have seen done is doing the swim test in at a local facility meeting requirements, basically deep enough so that it is over their head, and they have to make at least one turn. I have done it in a inground backyard pool that was six feet deep, but the Scout was under 6'. And they had to do lots of laps AND not touch the bottom.

 

27 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Scoutmaster can't sign off I believe it is someone that has the proper aquatics certification.

ONLY if they are going to a council summer camp.  Any adult with SSD can administer the test for unit activities. But  for summer camp, they need to be credentialed. here is the link to the Aqautics Manual https://www.ncacbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/bsa_swim_classification_test.pdf

Here is the link to the summer camp Swim Test Form that national published: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor program/aquatics/pdf/430-122.pdf

What I find ironic is that for a unit swim test, an adult with SSD can do the test. BUT for summer camp,  a certified Lifeguard, Swimming Instructor, or BSA Aquatics Supervisor: Swimming & Water Rescue can do the test. I was a lifeguard and swimming instructor at 16.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Eagle94-A1

[TMSM]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

ONLY if they are going to a council summer camp.  Any adult with SSD can administer the test for unit activities. But  for summer camp, they need to be credentialed. here is the link to the Aqautics Manual https://www.ncacbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/bsa_swim_classification_test.pdf

Sea Base also requires Auquatics or lifegaurd training for the BSA test taken before you leave. 

 

I require all adults to take the SSD and Safety Afloat training if they plan to go on an aquatic outing. No one has pushed back yet and it makes it easier for me to explain the rules.

[mashmaster]

Are you sure? per the form : https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor program/aquatics/pdf/430-122.pdf when I look at the form it wants much more than just an adult with SSD

ADMINISTRATION OF SWIM CLASSIFICATION TEST (THE LOCAL COUNCIL CHOOSES ONE OF THESE OPTIONS):

OPTION A (at camp): The swim classification test is completed the first day by camp aquatics personnel.

OPTION B (Council conducted/council controlled): The council controls the swim classification process by predetermined dates, locations, and approved personnel to serve as test administrators. When the unit goes to summer camp, each individual will be issued a buddy tag under the direction of the camp aquatics director for use at the camp.

OPTION C (At unit level with council-approved aquatics resource people): The swim classification test done at a unit level should be conducted by one of the following council approved resource people: Aquatics Instructor, BSA; Aquatics Cub Supervisor; BSA Lifeguard; BSA Swimming & Water Rescue; or other lifeguard, swimming instructor, etc. When the unit goes to summer camp, each individual will be issued a buddy tag under the direction of the camp aquatics director for use at the camp. 

[mashmaster]

41 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

 

ONLY if they are going to a council summer camp.  Any adult with SSD can administer the test for unit activities. But  for summer camp, they need to be credentialed. here is the link to the Aqautics Manual https://www.ncacbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/bsa_swim_classification_test.pdf

 

 

 

Maybe it is council based, our council only accepts the BSA form which clearly conflicts with the NCABSA form.

[Eagle94-A1]

43 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Are you sure? per the form : https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor program/aquatics/pdf/430-122.pdf when I look at the form it wants much more than just an adult with SSD

ADMINISTRATION OF SWIM CLASSIFICATION TEST (THE LOCAL COUNCIL CHOOSES ONE OF THESE OPTIONS):

OPTION A (at camp): The swim classification test is completed the first day by camp aquatics personnel.

OPTION B (Council conducted/council controlled): The council controls the swim classification process by predetermined dates, locations, and approved personnel to serve as test administrators. When the unit goes to summer camp, each individual will be issued a buddy tag under the direction of the camp aquatics director for use at the camp.

OPTION C (At unit level with council-approved aquatics resource people): The swim classification test done at a unit level should be conducted by one of the following council approved resource people: Aquatics Instructor, BSA; Aquatics Cub Supervisor; BSA Lifeguard; BSA Swimming & Water Rescue; or other lifeguard, swimming instructor, etc. When the unit goes to summer camp, each individual will be issued a buddy tag under the direction of the camp aquatics director for use at the camp. 

 

40 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Maybe it is council based, our council only accepts the BSA form which clearly conflicts with the NCABSA form.

Summer camps have national standards that they need to meet in order to be accredited.  If memory serves, swimming ability certification is part of the process, and the guidelines to meet the standard are set by national. Thus any camp that allows for pre-camp swim tests has to use the national form i posted.

 

Units do not have to follow those standards, but they do have to follow SSD and SA guidelines. The NCABSA link  is the chapter on Swim tests coming from this book. https://www.scoutshop.org/bsar-aquatics-supervision-guide-2019.html this book is the recommended book for units to use, and it has everything needed for the Aquatics Supervision courses.

 

CURRENTLY SSD and SA are the bare minimum required for units to do aquatic activities. I have been told both times i took the Aquatics Supervision courses, in 2014 and in 2019, that national is considering making the Aquatics Supervision courses the bare minimum needed. 

[mashmaster]

Well every unit in my council goes by the national form so all checks are done by lifeguards or similarly qualified individuals. Having take SSD and SA multiple times online, it scares me to think that would be the minimum for evaluating swimming abilities.