Big Dilemma !!

[Eamonn]

There seems to be a lot of ideas going around.

The way I see it is:

1/ The boy and the Dad attend. The boy is a Cub Scout and goes as a Cub Scout. He and his Dad are informed what the expectations are regarding behavior, dress and all the other stuff that is expected from all the Cub Scouts that are going.

If things work out well there is chance that the boy will not leave the pack.

Expelling the boy from the pack falls under a set of rules that are different from what has been mentioned here.

2/ They decide that they don't want to go.

In this case they lose their deposit.

3/ If the Pack Committee decides that allowing this Cub Scout to attend will ruin the experience for the other Cub Scouts. They can refuse to allow the Cub Scout to go. However a refund must be made. Hopefully someone will be found to take his place.

5/ To not allow the boy to attend and not refund his money is not an option. While I feel sure that the amount of money involved is not enough too involve law suits and that sort of thing. I do believe that by taking the money there is some sort of a contract in place.

6/ Maybe just maybe a face to face meeting with the Dad explaining everything would enable all those involved to come to some sort of agreement that will work for everyone?

And what is a PITA?

Eamonn

[ScoutNut]

Scouting may be a year round program, but we also consider September the "start" of the Scouting year. Councils hold their year kickoffs, recruitment rallies are held and weekly Den meetings begin(we don't do weekly meetings during the summer). September is also the time we redo our member list adding new boys and dropping those that have quit. Our charter is up the 1st of the year, but our scouting year goes from September to August and if we have been told that a scout has quit we take him off of our current member list as of September. We do not continue to send him flyers, invite him to outings or buy him a Christmas gift.

 

My question to Fotoscout is, when this dad told the Pack they would not be returning did anyone mention to him that he would be loosing his deposit on the trip? Has anyone talked to this family? Maybe this is all a lot of hair tearing for nothing. Maybe he does not intend to go on the trip now. Why don't you check with your newly recruited scouts and see if any of them are interested in going. That way you could offer the refund to the X-cub and not loose any money.

 

 

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

P = Pain

I = In

T = The

A = posterior region of the body!

 

[fotoscout]

ScoutNut,

 

The answer is absolutely yes! In addition, we went to great lengths in communicating the non-refundable aspect of the deposit when the trip was planned.

 

As for selling the slots to other people, we have already begun that, and it appears that we do have takers. This means that the refund will in all likelyhood be retuned

 

[dsteele]

thakn you for letting us know what a PITA is . I had no clue. I've met them before and will again, but didn't know the anacronym. Thanks!

 

Unc.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but charters run from April 1st to March 31st don't they? Rechartering on time is a huge deal in our district. It is one of the main goals of our Unit Commissions to wrangle the recharter packages from the units. How can one unit's charter run from January to December and everyone else's run April to March? I didn't know it was an option.

[fotoscout]

Actually a charter can run for any period. Imagine if you will, a Council with 12 Districts. The Council staff would be woefully inadequate to process all those Charters at the same time. So, Charters are staggered within the Council, some from Jan-Jan, some from March-March, etc. etc.

 

Heres the really ironic part of this whole thing. Last year we were a Sept. charter, but Council wanted to change us to a December charter. Instead of having a 12 month charter we had a 15 month charter. In our benevolence, we opted not to make things really confusing, and collected our pack fees based on a 12 month charter. The Pack laid out the difference, which was not a lot of money. If you followed that, you will realize that an argument could be made that his paid membership has expired, and that he is now on our time.

 

[Its Me]

I don't see this the exact way you are presenting it as a "Darned if I do, Darned if I don't". I think over all there will be far less agony if you just let the kid go. I bet the parents that are staying in scouting are far more understanding about the kid being allowed to go then the family being asked to forfeit the deposit. The path of least resistance is to let the kid go. Suck it up for two days and in the morning wish him well. Then thank goodness he is out of your life.

 

 

[Bob White]

"Our charter is up in December, so technically this boy is still registered until December."

 

That prety much says it all doesn't it?

 

This is not a boy who is or isn't quittting in three months. he is a registered member of the pack just like any other scout. He paid his money like the others. I see no reason for him not to go. People change their minds. This outing, and especially this situation and the way it is handled, could make the difference in what action the family ultimately takes.

 

Happy Scouting,

BW

 

 

 

[Mike F]

For this case, I'm with the "let him go" crowd.

Don't spend any additional energy trying to change his mind - just forget about it and go have fun. In fact, have so much fun that the other guys think he's crazy for deciding to quit after it's over.

 

But I agree this sometimes isn't the answer. We had a problem with some similarities on a Philmont trek. From the beginning - 1.5 years before the trip - we made it clear in writing that Philmont was only for scouts who were actively involved in the troop program. We didn't set numerical limits but defined program as troop meetings and campouts. As we tracked things, we noticed 2 scouts signed up for Philmont hadn't attended anything in almost a year - except for Philmont crew meetings and shakedowns. We had a conference with the guys and they said they didn't want to have anything to do with scouts - they justed wanted to go to Philmont, then they were quitting. We told them we hoped Philmont would help change their minds about the fun Scouting has to offer, but they had 2 months to attend some meetings and at least one troop campout, or they would be replaced. One had his attitude adjusted and is still with us today. One dropped out and opened up a slot for a very happy young man who got to take his place.

 

Again - we didn't hold it against them when they said they planned to drop after the trip. But we did insist they meet a minimum requirement of participating in the rest of the troop's program in order to take part in the good deals the troop had to offer.

 

Good luck! -mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

[nldscout]

BW Said'

"Our charter is up in December, so technically this boy is still registered until December."

 

"That prety much says it all doesn't it? "

 

Sorry but on this point I have to disagree. If your not attending meetings and maintaining active membership, and you stated you have quit. Then as I see it your not part of the unit anymore. That is why we have a standard that scouts must meet in order to attend special outings.

 

I would like to know if they are not attending meetings

[evmori]

I say no. They can't go. Refund their money & let the Pack absorb the cost. Consider it a lesson learned.

 

Should we try to keep all the boys in the program?

 

Sure!

 

Are all boys cut out for Scouting?

 

No!

 

And from what I have read, this by fits in the "not cut out for Scouting" group. Too bad. Kids like him really need the program.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[boleta]

The original proposition was to not let the Cub attend AND not refund the money- on the principle that they were told it was non-refundable. I stick by my post to let him go. But if you decide to consider him out of the Pack because he already "quit", then find someone else to take the spot and refund the money. However, it sounds like he does not consider himself having quit since he is planning on attending this event.

 

Has he attended any meetings at all since your Pack started meeting again after summer activities?

[Bob White]

So what exactly is the big dilemma?

 

It can't be that te boy says he is going to quit as foto mntions because "going to" isn't the same as "has". Going to hasn't happened yet, and in fact Foto refers to the boy as "one of my scouts" and regardless of personal opinions of other posters the fact remains tat his membership in in force with the Unit until such time as his membership is not renewed. Even if a scout doesn't show up for the first 11 months of his membership he is still a scout until his membership expires.

 

So what is the dilemma, that the boy might enjoy himself and change his mind? That he might enjoy himself and still quit? If so...so what he paid for the activity. That he is taking up someone else's spot? If so that was never mentioned by Foto.

 

I think foto sees the dilemma being what others might say. Sorry, the ability to ignore gossip and hearsay must come from the resolution of your own values.

 

Here is where I see the real dilemma is.

"Sometimes I think the boys wear their Quitting badge more proudly than the badges that they have earned."

 

If you have enough experience with scouts quitting, to be able to make this determination then you have a dilemma greater than whether a cub scout should be allowed on an activity with his pack.

 

No mention has been made that this boy misbehaves, has violated any policies or interrupted any program. Why would anyone even have to consider not letting him go.

 

Remember the parable of the prodigal son?

 

I think the focus may well be on the wrong dilemma.

 

Something to consider,

BW

 

[fotoscout]

Actually I dont have much experience with boys quitting on me. But I do know that there is much more chatter when they quit than when they earn some type of award or badge. The fact that a boy quit (my den or others) seems to resonate through the whole group with lightening speed. Nothing like that happens when they get to do something really great.

 

As for this boy, its interesting that this seems to have turned into a referendum on his behavior. His behavior has nothing to do with it. In fact hes a good kid, hes not his brother but he is a good kid. The boy quit, for the second or third time, and Im not comfortable with extending the privilege of allowing him to attend the trip.

 

Since the end of May we have had three Pack outings, 5 den meetings, a parent-cub weekend at camp, a week at day camp, a week at resident camp, and a family camp weekend. This boy has been missing in action right along the way and even prior to May he was MIA. Not only that, but his parents have not responded to any of the planning / informational emails that accompanied each of the events. And, AND, the parents have told us that he will not be returning.

 

The non-refundable deposit is a non issue as far as Im concerned. It was clearly communicated!

 

Bob, if I cared what others might say, I would simply roll over and let him go. Its about the integrity of our program. Im not here putting on a program for the quitters to take advantage of. I'm not in the business of creating special experiences and memories for the boys or families that have already quit. My interest, my time, my energies are directed toward the boys that are in the program, and not those that have left the program and might feel some perverse desire to take advantage of its special opportunities simply because they can. If they quit afterward, well thats life. Timing, its always about timing.

 

I dont believe for one second that any of the posters here would expect to participate on this trip after having quit the unit. Most of you would simply assume that youd not be welcome regardless of your registration status.

 

The lesson here is that there is no free meal.