National Annual Reports

[yknot]

21 hours ago, MattR said:

But after 13 years of pushing this the membership numbers are still going down. What bad assumptions are they making? Maybe it's a bad assumption that just having scads of documents around will make it easy for parents to pick this up and do well. Have you ever wondered why so few parents are willing to volunteer for scouts? Is it really all their fault because they're lazy or is it too complicated on top of the fact that their work life is already insane. If summer camps can't get parents to show up unless they have wifi for checking into work then that's a hint there's a problem.

I coached my daughter's 6 year old soccer team. It was pretty obvious what to do. Tell everyone to bring a ball. Get some cones. Make up some games. They learned the rules, they ran around and kicked the ball a bunch and they had fun. No literature needed. No databases or patches or SM conferences. I know the guy that taught the U18 team that almost won nationals. This guy was incredible working with the youth. His approach for these older kids was pretty much the same as mine except he understood soccer a lot better than me. Maybe kids like these types of competitive activities because the rules are simple and the challenges are both easy to understand and difficult to master.

Instead, we have to argue about whether a scout needs to actually start a fire to pass the fire building requirement. And then we argue about one and done and retesting at SM conferences. And the scout still can't start a fire because the PLC decided that they didn't want to do skills competitions. Just a hint, but this is one reason why some parents don't want to volunteer.

I'm not claiming I have the answer or that I even know what the problem is, but there is a problem. Scouting can be a good program. I've seen some amazing things. I see them much less now and it's a shame. My granddaughter is 16 months old and my grandson is 10 weeks old. I hope they have a scout program worth joining when they're 11 years old.

Youth sports dwarf scouting. Around 80% of kids ages 5-18 each year are enrolled in sports and prefer their chosen sports to scouts.  Scouting currently involves only about 1%-2% of the kid population. That reality means there is no point in comparing scouts to sports, yet a lot of energy and attention in scouting is spent on blaming sports -- as if sports is the reason more kids don't do scouts. There are few kids today who, after a day of near inactivity in school, want to sit around in den or troop meetings for another hour or two of "being good".  In an outdoor youth program, leaders shouldn't need to move activities outdoors to make scouting more appealing -- the rank advancement and merit badge activities themselves should be appealing because they are things you can only do while outdoors.  At a monthly campout or summer camp, it's not unusual to have kids sitting around campsites doing homework like tasks to complete requirements. It's like having a soccer league where the kids sit on the pitch and study the rules of soccer and talk about soccer and write reports about soccer maybe more than they actually play soccer. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 5/17/2024 at 9:10 PM, yknot said:

summer camp, it's not unusual to have kids sitting around campsites doing homework like tasks to complete requirements. It's like having a soccer league where the kids sit on the pitch and study the rules of soccer and talk about soccer and write reports about soccer maybe more than they actually play soccer. 

This.

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In the National Annual Report, https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/year2023/  they should change the verbiage from "earned" Merit Badges to "awarded" Merit Badges.  There is a difference...

Consider Camping Merit Badge. (For which, even after much advice and counsel, several of our Scouts still sign up every year at Summer Camp.)

Including the subordinate items, there are 30 different requirements to complete for the badge.

How many are "outdoors" requirements?  5:

8 (d) While camping in the outdoors, cook ...[three meals]... [It's funny that they even have to preface this one.]

9 (a) Camp a total of at least 20 nights...

9 (b) On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following... [so, counted as two...]

9 (c) On any of these camping experiences, perform a conservation project...

And of these five, I would posit that all should be done with the unit.  Also, of the five, which usually are completed at Summer Camp? (I'll let you answer that one yourself.)

The rest of the 25 requirements are academically oriented.  Discuss, describe, explain, plan, etc...  Some could be made into activities, but generally are not.  Many "sessions" I have witnessed involved an instructor (under 18, so not the counselor...) lecturing to kids sitting around a picnic table, and then marking off a requirements for them.  The Scouts endure this torture just to get the piece of cloth...

-----------------------------

Before signing a blue card, I ask Scouts about the activities they did for the badge.  I always found discrepancies for a sizeable number from Summer Camps,.  When I pointed these out to the Scouts, most admitted they had never even read the requirements.  They just relied on the instructor to teach them what they needed.  Less than a fourth of these Scouts would take me up on my offer to finish the requirements as they were written, so that they actually "earned" the badge.

Discussing this with the committee, I was dispirited that many of the parents held the same view... that if the instructor/counselor signed off on it, it was good enough.  I told them I would decline to sign blue cards if I found that a Scout had not completed the requirements.  The committee accepted this.  But, there are other "unit leaders" who did not agree, and those leaders are the ones who signed blue cards or would mark things completed in Scoutbook.  I am only responsible for my own actions.

After filing about 8 reports https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-800_WB.pdf with zero feedback or questions from the camps we attended, I realize that time was wasted, and those reports went into file #13.

I call this the "dirty little secret" of BSA Summer Camps... the wide-ranging lack of integrity in the Merit Badge program.  The consequences of this are visible across the board, IMO.  Scout skills are abysmal.

Summer Camp is supposed to be about unit long-term camping and doing activities that units do not normally have the expertise to put on for themselves.  Summer Camp is not about Merit Badges.  But we have corrupted the "camping" and turned this experience into something it is not supposed to be.  And Scouts, parents, leaders, staffs, "counselors", and professionals turn a blind eye.  Why?  Because Merit Badges generate revenue.

 

Edited May 19 by InquisitiveScouter
hyperbole

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

that if the instructor/counselor signed off on it, it was good enough.  I told them I would decline to sign blue cards if I found that a Scout had not completed the requirements. 

This isn't an opinion, it is policy. If the blue card is signed by the counselor, then the scout has earned it. Your "beef" is with the camp / counselor, the scout should still be awarded the badge. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

17 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

This isn't an opinion, it is policy. If the blue card is signed by the counselor, then the scout has earned it. Your "beef" is with the camp / counselor, the scout should still be awarded the badge. 

No.

Please read Guide to Advancement, 7.0.4.7

"In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a Scout who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because, although signed off, it was never actually earned. "

[DannyG]

49 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No.

Please read Guide to Advancement, 7.0.4.7

"In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a Scout who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because, although signed off, it was never actually earned. "

Thus, the unit leader signs the blue card again after the counselor completes it. That's the check the merit badge is earned. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, DannyG said:

Thus, the unit leader signs the blue card again after the counselor completes it. That's the check the merit badge is earned. 

Correct.  And that is why I would decline to sign the card if the Scout had not completed the requirements.

[SSScout]

Again.    Bugling MB...   Scout attempts to play the call(s). After each attempt, he asks, "Did that pass?"   When I ask, "what do you think?"  He responds, "mmmaybe not(sheepish grin)""...  We part company with a partial, but I do not hear from him again.... 

It's the high G that get's 'em.   But I insist I hear SOMETHING approximating the call as we both hear it on my ancient CD .  

Three brothers arrive with new "Hunting Horns", also seen online as a "Cavalry Horn" ( the short little ones , not a "real" bugle).  I tell them, yes with expertise, the calls can be made on these horns. Are they ready?  One says he played trumpet in his school band last year, but not this year. Why?  He didn't like to practice (honesty !). The other two , younger brothers have never even attempted the new (still in the plastic wrap !) horns they have, that their mom bought for them.  For the time allotted, we instruct and they learn to "buzz".   Can I give them a "partial" ?   Do they have their  Blue Cards, as mentioned in the "prerequisites" ?  No, thought I provided them.  So, the mom didn't get them?   I remind them that they , the SCOUTS need to take some more personal responsibility....   I remind them, they have all my contact info, call me when they are ready to DO the Merit Badge .  That was three years ago.  Never heard back from them. This is an all too  usual thing for me.... 

I have done this by ZOOM, mom or dad in the background....   Discuss, listen, counsel, come back in two weeks, by golly, I can scan off a new Blue Card to them... 

Will they come across somebody who will be that Russian MBCounselor (It's Gudinov for me !)?  Yeah...   It's like we are  not out of the Cub Scout mentality of  "Do Your Best"  as sufficient. 

Then there are the few Scouts who come ready.  An hour later, I sign a Blue Card .  A new Wynton Marsalis?  Perhaps.... 

Edited May 21 by SSScout

[mrjohns2]

On 5/20/2024 at 8:59 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Correct.  And that is why I would decline to sign the card if the Scout had not completed the requirements.

When the Scout admits it. Your example of a Scout admitting they didn't read the requirements is a pretty poor judge if they did them or not. If swimming merit badge at camp covers certain requirements each day, the counselor tracks completion, and when done, done. There isn't a requirement for the Scout to read the requirements, just do them.  And it should be rare. Rare. Not a regular occurrence. It sounds like for your unit, this was a regular occurrence. Your sense of righteousness seems strong. 

Again "Just as we avoid penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults, it should be a rare occurrence that a unit leader finds the need to question whether merit badges have been earned." This isn't to be done with each badge with each scout. That doesn't seem how you describe your process. 

Edited May 21 by mrjohns2

[DuctTape]

48 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

When the Scout admits it. Your example of a Scout admitting they didn't read the requirements is a pretty poor judge if they did them or not. If swimming merit badge at camp covers certain requirements each day, the counselor tracks completion, and when done, done. There isn't a requirement for the Scout to read the requirements, just do them.  And it should be rare. Rare. Not a regular occurrence. It sounds like for your unit, this was a regular occurrence. Your sense of righteousness seems strong. 

Again "Just as we avoid penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults, it should be a rare occurrence that a unit leader finds the need to question whether merit badges have been earned." This isn't to be done with each badge with each scout. That doesn't seem how you describe your process. 

Sadly, it is more common than one might think at summer camps. And some camps are significantly worse than others. Part of the problem is the "counselors" are other scouts, albeit a few years older. This should not be allowed. Even if if was an adult who officially signed the card. The adult is supposed to have tested each scout on the requirements, not rely on a 15 year old CIT who "led a class". The merita badge mill summer camps are a stain on the entire process. Sadly BSA doesn't just turn a blind eye, it appears they actively encourage it. 

[skeptic]

26 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Sadly, it is more common than one might think at summer camps. And some camps are significantly worse than others. Part of the problem is the "counselors" are other scouts, albeit a few years older. This should not be allowed. Even if if was an adult who officially signed the card. The adult is supposed to have tested each scout on the requirements, not rely on a 15 year old CIT who "led a class". The merita badge mill summer camps are a stain on the entire process. Sadly BSA doesn't just turn a blind eye, it appears they actively encourage it. 

And, while most such weak or fudged things are not dangerous, in the case of swimming it can be.  I had a real wake up on that.  I had a boy do swimming for a week at camp and he received his approval and card.  A month later, we went to the local Naval Base and used their pool.  The Navy guy running the pool told them all to swim the length of the pool,thenfloat,  so he could judge their skill levels.  The boy I noted could not do it.  Now if you completed the badge just a month prior you should have verified minimal skill in four strokes at least, plus float.  When I confronted the boy he admitted he somehow managed to fool the staff.  Needless to say, I was not happy.  I reported it to the council and they did not hire that swimming counselor or her staff for the next year.  I am just glad the Navy guy was on top of it.  

[mrjohns2]

53 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The adult is supposed to have tested each scout on the requirements, not rely on a 15 year old CIT who "led a class".

Actually, that isn't true. If so, all counselors would need to be 18. They oversee quality control to make sure those that are teaching the MB are holding to the standards, but the adult is not expected to test each scout on each requirement. Just not part of the program or expectations. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Actually, that isn't true. If so, all counselors would need to be 18. They oversee quality control to make sure those that are teaching the MB are holding to the standards, but the adult is not expected to test each scout on each requirement. Just not part of the program or expectations. 

G2A

"There must be attention to each individual’s projects and fulfillment of all requirements. We must know that every Scout—actually and personally—completed them. If, for example, a requirement uses words like “show,” “demonstrate,” or “discuss,” then every Scout must do that. It is unacceptable to award badges on the basis of sitting in classrooms watching demonstrations, or remaining silent during discussions. "

[mrjohns2]

Yes? That do that with the counselor. That counselor may end up not being an adult. It is up to the council advancment committe (see other parts of the guide to advancement) to manage the quality of the summer camp mb program. I can assure you that about 90% of MBs am nation wide are taught by counselors under 18. Have you been to camp? Have you assured yourself and your scouts of quality instruction? I have. If you have, you’d know that the requirements are done with an MBC that is more likely than not under 18. You must be new to the program to have this all jumbled up. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

To be a Merit Badge Counselor, you must be 18.

A Summer Camp Counselor (staffer) is not a de facto Merit Badge Counselor.

And ONLY registered Merit Badge Counselors may sign off requirements completions.

You must have never read your Scout Handbook, any Merit Badge pamphlet, taken the Merit Badge Counselor training, or read the Guide to Advancement to have this all jumbled up.

Edited May 22 by InquisitiveScouter

[MattR]

This is going sideways fast. I don't want to lock this thread, so please, don't let this website ruin your day.

In the meantime ...

Doesn't it make anyone else wonder that if we're arguing over advancement that isn't being done and the scouts don't mind and don't care, that this is really just a huge waste of effort? It seems the adults care about the advancement a lot more than the scouts do. Just maybe that means advancement isn't doing what it was intended to do. Aren't all the methods supposed to be ways to motivate the scouts to participate and interact with each other so they learn more about the scout law? Instead, we're arguing or getting worked up and the scouts don't want to have anything to do with it. 

Soon, someone will reply that the adults are just screwing up, find better adults or more adults or just go fix it yourself. Remember, this thread is about dropping membership. I'm thinking the problem is deeper than "just do it right." From my view, giving recognition to a scout that discusses how to make a fire and/or the food plate, is just feature bloat in the program. Just a thought, but if a scout gets recognized for doing something that his friends in school think is stupid, then the program is recognizing the wrong thing if the goal is to increase membership. Swim a mile? Absolutely. Climb a 1000 ft? Of course. Discuss how programmers can hurt themselves? Say what?

 

Quote

After completing Tenderfoot requirement 6c, be physically active
at least 30 minutes each day for five days a week for four weeks.
Keep track of your activities.

They're joking, right? What kid is going to brag to his friends that he kept a journal of being active for a month? If you want a scout to be physically active then reward them for hiking 10 miles or going on a long bike ride. This requirement is a farce and everyone knows it. This type of thing is so watered down, such that everyone can get it, that the rank requirements are more participation award than recognition. That's why membership is going down. Asking the adults to work around this mess just causes arguments and frustration. That's why adults don't want to volunteer.