Who can technically fire/replace a Charter Organization Representative?

[NYCScouter]

I have read all the Guidebook Literature and looked at a number of Scouter Forum discussions and there doesn't appear to be any official method for removal of a Chartered Org Rep (COR), and replacing them with someone who actually does the job as defined in the Guidebook. Any guidance on this from some Troop that has experienced this problem out there?

[RememberSchiff]

@NYCScouter on behalf of the moderators of scouter.com welcome.

[Thunderbird]

The BSA adult application says:  "The chartered organization representative is approved by the head of the chartered organization."

As a general rule, the person with the power to appoint also has the power to remove / fire.

[CynicalScouter]

3 hours ago, NYCScouter said:

I have read all the Guidebook Literature and looked at a number of Scouter Forum discussions and there doesn't appear to be any official method for removal of a Chartered Org Rep (COR), and replacing them with someone who actually does the job as defined in the Guidebook. Any guidance on this from some Troop that has experienced this problem out there?

The head of the chartered organization, referred to in Scouting literature as the "executive officer." These may sometimes be the same person. "The Chartered Organization Representative (COR), who will be appointed by the Chartered Organization."

See the Chartered Organization Representative Guidebook.

As for how, the only way I've seen it done has been to offer up a new person. Simply going to the Chartered Org itself or the EO thereof and complaining never, ever, ever works. What I have seen work is "Hey COR thanks for your service, would you be interested in letting so and so have a chance?" or easing the person out with a replacement already picked.
Remember: the COR was put there by the Chartered Org. You have to in effect convince the Chartered Org was wrong in the first place or is wrong now to keep this person around AND that someone else is willing to step up. I know at lots of units whose COR remains only because no one else wants the position/is scared of the position.

[fred8033]

Charter organization head can.  If a church, that's a pastor at the church or the church council.  

CynicalScouter hit it on the head and addressed my main concern.  When people ask how to replace someone in the scouting structure, it's because of conflict in the unit or other problems.  I'd really invest in making connections, building friendships, getting to know people and seeing if you can encourage change in a friendly, constructive way ... as CynicalScouter said.  Always avoid power struggles.  They never work and people get damaged. 

I'd also reflect on the assertion that the COR is not doing his job.  The job of a COR is pretty small and ideally, almost invisible.  Is it really the COR not doing the job or is there conflict in the unit and a vision that things could be different?

 

[NYCScouter]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Charter organization head can.  If a church, that's a pastor at the church or the church council.  

CynicalScouter hit it on the head and addressed my main concern.  When people ask how to replace someone in the scouting structure, it's because of conflict in the unit or other problems.  I'd really invest in making connections, building friendships, getting to know people and seeing if you can encourage change in a friendly, constructive way ... as CynicalScouter said.  Always avoid power struggles.  They never work and people get damaged. 

I'd also reflect on the assertion that the COR is not doing his job.  The job of a COR is pretty small and ideally, almost invisible.  Is it really the COR not doing the job or is there conflict in the unit and a vision that things could be different?

Reply from NYCScouter: Excellent and measured responses from both of you.  Thank you.  I think I've become a battered political cynic myself in this age of hyper partisan forum discussions.  Eveyone is a troll on political forums in the age of Trump, and usually deeply misinformed and proportionately aggressive. But it certainly makes a great deal of sense that Scouters might actually consider the nuanced motivations for such a question, and provide Scout-like solutions and decorum.  You gave me the answer I needed, even if the way in which our particular COR was chosen followed none of the standard selection process detailed here.

I will carefully consider the wisdom in both your answers, your succession solutions, and think about the path forward in our circumstance. Thank you once again.

 

[TAHAWK]

In addition to the above, anyone who can remove the COR's BSA membership.

[David CO]

On 7/14/2020 at 7:40 PM, fred8033 said:

Always avoid power struggles. 

Yes, try to avoid power struggles.  Especially so if the person you are struggling with has all the power.

[TAHAWK]

Feet have the ultimate power.  Ask Landers, Frary and Clark,  in its time the largest consumer metal products company in the World - that knew better than the customers what the customer wanted. Turns out the customers have all the power.  

[skeptic]

On 7/14/2020 at 5:40 PM, fred8033 said:

Charter organization head can.  If a church, that's a pastor at the church or the church council.  

CynicalScouter hit it on the head and addressed my main concern.  When people ask how to replace someone in the scouting structure, it's because of conflict in the unit or other problems.  I'd really invest in making connections, building friendships, getting to know people and seeing if you can encourage change in a friendly, constructive way ... as CynicalScouter said.  Always avoid power struggles.  They never work and people get damaged. 

I'd also reflect on the assertion that the COR is not doing his job.  The job of a COR is pretty small and ideally, almost invisible.  Is it really the COR not doing the job or is there conflict in the unit and a vision that things could be different?

 

This, IMO, is part of the problem in the hierarchy of local councils.  In reality, the COR, in conjunction with the others within the council, have considerable power if they are coordinated.  Each has a seat on the Executive Board, and a vote.  Most either choose to not participated beyond the signing of adult apps and occasional troop visits.  But, their job is to represent their CO on the council Exec board, and to convey the CO's concerns.  Most councils appear to downplay that actual power and would prefer to not see the COR's attending meetings, especially ones dominated by an elite clique appointed by the Scout Executive.  The SE appoints some board members, and those appear too often to be the controllers of the actual board decisions.  There have been occasions though where someone coordinated a COR revolt and suddenly there were major changes happening in that council, including the firing of the Executive and others.  I would suggest that if a council actually had active COR participation at a high level, they might be far better run.  

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, skeptic said:

This, IMO, is part of the problem in the hierarchy of local councils.  In reality, the COR, in conjunction with the others within the council, have considerable power if they are coordinated.  Each has a seat on the Executive Board, and a vote.  Most either choose to not participated beyond the signing of adult apps and occasional troop visits.  But, their job is to represent their CO on the council Exec board, and to convey the CO's concerns.  Most councils appear to downplay that actual power and would prefer to not see the COR's attending meetings, especially ones dominated by an elite clique appointed by the Scout Executive.  The SE appoints some board members, and those appear too often to be the controllers of the actual board decisions.  There have been occasions though where someone coordinated a COR revolt and suddenly there were major changes happening in that council, including the firing of the Executive and others.  I would suggest that if a council actually had active COR participation at a high level, they might be far better run.  

Agreed.  I was referring to inside the unit.  Inside the unit, the COR should be almost invisible.  Almost invisible to the scout.  Maybe, the COR takes a seat the at the unit committee meetings, maybe.  Outside the unit, yes.  The COR "should" be actively representing the unit to the sponsoring or and the council.

[Eagledad]

Much of the time, if not most of the time, the CO really isn't that in touch with the program, the unit, or the COR. In fact, they appoint a COR so they don't have to get  personally involved with the program. In their mind, they are basically just providing a facility for the units to meet. So, the CORs are usually either inactive, or over active. And just like everything else, if the COR wants to use the position for selfserving reasons, there isn't much to get in their way. The worst CORs are typically also unit leaders using their leverage to push the program as they see fit.

I agree that a better path is to become friends with the COR, but, my experience is that meeting and getting to know the CO solves more problems down the road. While CORs come and go, the CO head is usually around for the long haul.

We once struggled with the Chartered Organization to the point of looking for a new CO. When SE found out how serious we were about changing COs, he got personally involved and changed Chartered Organization perspective our a youth scouting program and found a new COR.

Life was good again, but one of the issues that the CO was using as an excuses to not to like us was the ceiling tiles in the meeting room were being continually damaged. Which didn't make since to us, we couldn't see how our scouts would do that. The new COR investigated this issue and found that the GIRLS SCOUTS where tearing up the ceiling tiles with their flag poles and the youth Sunday School classes where throwing balls a the tiles between classes.  The CO was quite humble after that and we never hand any issue with them going forward.

Barry