Swimming - Ranks

[David CO]

15 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

In my professional opinion as a former lifeguard instructor and swimming instructor, I think they should be EXTREMELY RARE (emphasis).

Nature won't make an exception for them if they fall into the water.

[Mrjeff]

If I remember correctly the initial question was concerning a kid doing swimming requirements in a backyard pool, and the answer is simple, yes.  As far as when alternate requirements may be used, it is not based on numbers, opinions, or even rarity.  It is covered in the Advancement Guide, which does an excellent job in explaining the process.

[scoutldr]

34 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

If I remember correctly the initial question was concerning a kid doing swimming requirements in a backyard pool, and the answer is simple, yes.  As far as when alternate requirements may be used, it is not based on numbers, opinions, or even rarity.  It is covered in the Advancement Guide, which does an excellent job in explaining the process.

Yes, I just looked it up.  It must be a documented disability verified in writing by a "health professional".   

[elitts]

18 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

If I remember correctly the initial question was concerning a kid doing swimming requirements in a backyard pool, and the answer is simple, yes.  As far as when alternate requirements may be used, it is not based on numbers, opinions, or even rarity.  It is covered in the Advancement Guide, which does an excellent job in explaining the process.

If the pool is 25' long in one dimension, you could use it for the 2nd class requirement, but not for the 1st class requirement.

 

For First Class, the standard backyard pool just isn't going to be sufficient since they have to past the BSA Swimmer Test.  Please see this excerpt from the BSA Swimming Classification:

Quote

The swimmer must be able to cover distance with a strong, confident stroke. The 75 yards is not the expected upper limit of the swimmer’s ability. The distance should be covered in a manner that indicates sufficient skill and stamina for the swimmer to continue to swim for greater distances. Strokes repeatedly interrupted and restarted are not sufficient.

If you are actually trying to verify a scout's ability to pass this test, stopping to turn around and then shove off again 9+ times (in a standard backyard pool) just isn't going to show you what you'd need to see to know that the scout has sufficient skill and stamina to swim for greater distances.

[qwazse]

6 minutes ago, elitts said:

... (in a standard backyard pool) just isn't going to show you what you'd need to see to know that the scout has sufficient skill and stamina to swim for greater distances.

You all need to what I did when I was a kid and make friends with the Dr. who put in a 50' foot pool just up the hill (I kid not) just up the hill from the county pool.

Of course, by the time we could hang out at his pool, we had all made it through the gauntlet of the ARC program run by a WAC vet. You knew you'd pass any swim test when she stopped cussing at you about your form.

[Jameson76]

2 hours ago, elitts said:

If the pool is 25' long in one dimension, you could use it for the 2nd class requirement, but not for the 1st class requirement.

 

For First Class, the standard backyard pool just isn't going to be sufficient since they have to past the BSA Swimmer Test.  Please see this excerpt from the BSA Swimming Classification:

If you are actually trying to verify a scout's ability to pass this test, stopping to turn around and then shove off again 9+ times (in a standard backyard pool) just isn't going to show you what you'd need to see to know that the scout has sufficient skill and stamina to swim for greater distances.

These are the basics of the BSA swimmer test - 

BSA swimmer test: Jump feet first into water over the head in depth. Level off and swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be completed in one swim without stops and must include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating

Nothing says length, etc.  Just the 100 yards must be done at one time.  Yes 10 laps in a 30' pool could be different, but it is not specifically prohibited

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

These are the basics of the BSA swimmer test - 

BSA swimmer test: Jump feet first into water over the head in depth. Level off and swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be completed in one swim without stops and must include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating

Nothing says length, etc.  Just the 100 yards must be done at one time.  Yes 10 laps in a 30' pool could be different, but it is not specifically prohibited

True.  Nothing specifies the length of the pool, but it does say that the water must be over his head.  Most backyard pools aren't deep enough.

[Mrjeff]

This is just another example of issues, items, restrictions, and additions of specific requirements that are very explicit and are not open to interpretation.   Unfortunatly this happens all the time and has been going on for decades.

[David CO]

30 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

This is just another example of issues, items, restrictions, and additions of specific requirements that are very explicit and are not open to interpretation.   Unfortunatly this happens all the time and has been going on for decades.

I had a very annoying argument once over the issue of pool depth.  My school had an indoor pool with both a deep end and a shallow end.  The students/scouts would jump in (over their heads) in the deep end, but complete the swim using both the deep end and the shallow end. The swim was disqualified if a kid let his feet touch the pool floor.  This is the way the swim lanes were designed to be used.  

Of course, someone argued that the entire swim must be completed in a deep end, with the water over their heads.  Ugh!  It just goes to prove that, no matter how explicit you think the instructions are, there will always be someone who will have a different interpretation.

Edited July 24, 2020 by David CO

[Mrjeff]

You are so right my friend, you are so right!

[yknot]

Water body size is not stated anywhere in those requirements. Requiring scouts to swim 100 or even 75 yards in a straight shot would be a barrier for an awful lot of scouts who don't have access to large facilities or large bodies of water.  If, as you state, the purpose of the test is to assess stamina, then that can only truly be assessed in open water conditions, because that's the only situation in which that kind of stamina for rescue or survival would be required. A pool test, in flat, temperature controlled static water, would be useless. Otherwise, any body of water where the scout can fulfill the yardage requirements while also initially jumping into water over their heads meets the requirement. If you apply other restrictions then you are adding to the requirement, which is not allowed. To compare, there are other requirements with such stipulations as "run a mile." It does not say run a mile on a regulation track or on a professionally marked course, so why would someone assume that a regulation pool is also required. Some of these things I assume are left open by design. Otherwise only affluent scouts or scouts who live in areas with certain facilities would be able to meet the requirements. That's not the purpose of the requirement or the badge. 

 

 

 

[Mrjeff]

Wow.....can a backyard pool be used for a swim test...........yes a backyard pool can be used for a swim test.

[David CO]

42 minutes ago, yknot said:

If you apply other restrictions then you are adding to the requirement, which is not allowed. To compare, there are other requirements with such stipulations as "run a mile." It does not say run a mile on a regulation track or on a professionally marked course, so why would someone assume that a regulation pool is also required. Some of these things I assume are left open by design.

Sort of.  You can't change the requirements of the test.  You can't insist that they run the mile on a specific course, or take the swim test in a specific pool or lake.  But you can say that we are taking the test today at a specific time and place, and if you don't want to do it today, you will have to take it on another day, or not take it at all.  We can't change the requirements of the test, but we don't have to cater to their every whim.

[David CO]

1 minute ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow.....can a backyard pool be used for a swim test...........yes a backyard pool can be used for a swim test.

OK.  Fine.  Tether them to a rope, from the center of the pool, and let them swim in circles.  Good grief!

[Mrjeff]

I have an idea.   Someone volunteer to lead a committee to determine if a backyard pool can be used.  Then, that person has 45 days to choose their committee members.  There must be one member who will research the size of backyard pools; someone must research the shape of backyard pools; someone must research the depth of backyard pools; and someone must research the water temperature of backyard pools.  There must also be one person to research the height of those individuals who will be using backyard pools to complete requirements.  These members will be given 45 days to collect the required information.  At the end of the 45 day research material collection each member will report to the Hershey Hotel in Corpus Christy,  Texas in order to evaluate and apply the material.  After this occurs the committee will have 30 days to complete a 30 page report outlining their recommendations concerning the use of a backyard swimming pools to complete  scouting requirements. This report will then be reviewed and then a decision will be made by someone about swimming in something. By this time winter has set in, all of the backyard swimming pools are frozen and could be used for ice skating but only after someone volunteers to lead a committee to decide if backyard swimming pools could be used for ice skating!  That was easy