Civil Protest, Policing, Moving Forward

[Sentinel947]

4 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Get serious.  Here's an interview with one of the founders of BLM.  At the 6 minute mark she talks about being a "trained Marxist."  The Postmodern progressive movement isn't interested in a diverse group of people singing scout vespers around the campfire.  

 

I'm entirely serious. Is it still possible to decide on issues based on values and not whether I'm on team red or team blue? 

Is the BSA the Scouting movement or part of THE Scouting movement? 

Is the official BLM organization representing everyone that protests? Or just the most organized and vocal? 

I think there are legitiment greviences Black people have about how they are treated by the legal system and society. More than that, I've seen the impacts these systemic issues have had on Black and Hispanic citizens. How my  white family benefited from access to good educations, safe neighborhoods and good real estate. I'd like to see that reality happen for more Black people too. 

That doesn't mean I have to endorse all their aims. If I find a common cause, that doesn't violate the teachings of the Church and the law with a Marxist, or a Jew, a Muslim or anybody else, I can cooperate in achieving that objective. Maybe somedays they'll be advocating policies I can't support, and I'll oppose those specifically. 

 

[Eagledad]

39 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I'm entirely serious. Is it still possible to decide on issues based on values and not whether I'm on team red or team blue? 

Is the BSA the Scouting movement or part of THE Scouting movement? 

Is the official BLM organization representing everyone that protests? Or just the most organized and vocal? 

I think there are legitiment greviences Black people have about how they are treated by the legal system and society. More than that, I've seen the impacts these systemic issues have had on Black and Hispanic citizens. How my  white family benefited from access to good educations, safe neighborhoods and good real estate. I'd like to see that reality happen for more Black people too. 

That doesn't mean I have to endorse all their aims. If I find a common cause, that doesn't violate the teachings of the Church and the law with a Marxist, or a Jew, a Muslim or anybody else, I can cooperate in achieving that objective. Maybe somedays they'll be advocating policies I can't support, and I'll oppose those specifically. 

 

Well, your young. These discussions have been going for 60 years (Black Panthers). I'm wondering why the billions in taxes over those years on this one specific ideal hasn't had any effect. Hmm, wondering wondering. 

Barry

[Sentinel947]

36 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Well, your young. These discussions have been going for 60 years (Black Panthers). I'm wondering why the billions in taxes over those years on this one specific ideal hasn't had any effect. Hmm, wondering wondering. 

Barry

Money will never overcome a lack of will. Both parties benefit from the status quo, so nothing really changes. 

Or were you thinking something else? 

[qwazse]

30 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Well, your young. These discussions have been going for 60 years (Black Panthers). I'm wondering why the billions in taxes over those years on this one specific ideal hasn't had any effect. Hmm, wondering wondering. 

Barry

Okay, since you've discounted a member based on ageist reasons. Maybe you can ding an old conservative guy ...

• The billions have actually made a tremendous dent. The preponderance of children of welfare moms have gone on to start business and careers of their own. I loved meeting welfare children with dreams and aspirations. Lots of minorities made good on athletic scholarships. Their kids are now starting their business and colleges. The GI Bill opened doors.
• But, there are certain things that a lack of capital prevented. In particular, farm loans were notoriously biased. They were doled out according to generational wealth -- which often times led to default. Black farmers (if they had acquired their 40 acres) were more than willing to operate on the thinnest of margins to avoid default, but banks bet on established farms which later sold out to corporate and then to agriculture imports.
• No-knock warrants were regretted by members of the Nixon almost the minute they were invented. Suspects died, LEO's died, collateral died. But, winding back that leviathan was a political quagmire for state and local officials running on a tough-on-crime ticket.
• The warrior-police movement gained traction after terrorist attacks, but chief of police only recently realized the fallacy of that approach. So suddenly that gets rolled back. But officers who preferred to be warriors in many communities were allowed to carry on. Who can blame the officers? Most aren't that good at social work.

There are more detailed lists. On balance, more was gained than wasted when we invested in minority welfare. More was lost when we invested in aggressive policing.

But the thing is, all of these are things we can improve. Investment in minorities still tends to be a good long term strategy.

Getting my scouts connected with minorities (when parents allow that sort of thing) has provided tremendous growth.

[thrifty]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

 

• The warrior-police movement gained traction after terrorist attacks, but chief of police only recently realized the fallacy of that approach. So suddenly that gets rolled back. But officers who preferred to be warriors in many communities were allowed to carry on. Who can blame the officers? Most aren't that good at social work.

 

I pulled this data quickly but here's what I've got.  Every day a law enforcement officer goes to work they are at risk of losing their lives, hit, spit on, bit, pissed on, puked on, etc... One officer in our area approached an occupied parked car at a walmart and passed out before even reaching it because the drugs in the car were so potent.  A hazmat team had to be called.  Police are at risk just breathing the air or touching a car door these days.  How many social workers in the U.S. were killed in the line of duty last year?  As far as I'm concerned law enforcement are at war every day.  My political position is really simple, I'm anti-stupid and anti-crime.  

FBI Releases 2019 Statistics on Law Enforcement Officers Killed in the Line of Duty

 

"According to statistics reported to the FBI, 89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019. Of these, 48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in accidents."

FBI Releases 2018 Statistics on Law Enforcement Officers Killed in the Line of Duty

"According to statistics reported to the FBI, 106 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2018. Of these, 55 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 51 officers died in accidents."

 

[David CO]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

Investment in 

I really dislike it when people refer to government expenditures as investments.  Taxation is a harsh business.  Best not to soften the language.    

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, thrifty said:

...  How many social workers in the U.S. were killed in the line of duty last year? ...

The year before last, 23, if you include clergy and such (https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0326.htm). Maybe a littleness arrive training could help them lower that stat.

[thrifty]

20 hours ago, qwazse said:

The year before last, 23, if you include clergy and such (https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0326.htm). Maybe a littleness arrive training could help them lower that stat.

I didn't notice any deaths by violence by persons under religious workers.  Nothing in that column comes close to Protective Service Occupations that encompass law enforcement and others.  Considering the column includes violence by animals, if you exclude jobs such as Farmers which is more likely to be animal related, at a glance the other top contenders appear to be managerial/sales type jobs.  Workplace violence is always tragic but I doubt most of those individuals felt that they were knowingly putting their lives in danger at the time.

[thrifty]

wife just told me about this story below. not the first time, emt/fire gets attacked too but it seems relevant to this.

"Virginia Beach firefighters attacked while trying to save motorcyclist’s life, officials say"

http://www.pilotonline.com/news/crime/vp-nw-first-responders-attacked-20200701-tm2vicd7tjel3okvueonj46sju-story.html

[Sentinel947]

21 hours ago, David CO said:

I really dislike it when people refer to government expenditures as investments.  Taxation is a harsh business.  Best not to soften the language.    

I believe it was Oliver Wendell Holmes who said "Taxes are the price we pay for Civilization." Regardless we are going to pay money to some institution to provide services that we cannot provide by ourselves. Whether it's a corporation, a HOA, a non-profit, or a government. The only difference between the first three and the government is that the first three are voluntary. 

Government expenditures can most certainly be investments. Roads and transportation networks are investments. Educating young people is an investment. National Defense, Banking insurance, national retirement programs are all programs too big to be run by anything other than government. That isn't to say the government does a particularly great job at any of those things, but there is at least a purpose in government.  

The real question for anybody who is being honest with themselves is not, "Do we need government?" but is "How much government should I be paying for?"

Americans of both parties are addicted to government spending. Both parties seem to be perfectly happy with spending tons of future American's money and sticking my generation and future generation with the bill. Deficit spending and borrowing money is a neat financial trick, but it eventually bottoms out when the interest payments get too high, or investors are afraid to loan a government more money. 

[TAHAWK]

Promising "free" stuff has been a political stock-in-trade all my life - and longer.  "Kicking the can down the road" on the issue of paying for all the "free" stuff has equally been the political orthodoxy for that same period - and longer.

Political Dictionary:

"Reducing government spending" - almost always, reducing the rate at which government spending increases.

"Free" - when someone else pays - at  least until we run out of other peoples' money.

"Stimulus Program" - other peoples' money

"Objective journalism" - our flacks

[qwazse]

@thrifty, not disagreeing. You asked for numbers, I found some. There is no doubt that if we double the number of SWs, that we'll have more SW deaths on the job. The open question: if we reduce the number of LEOs, will that reduce the LEO deaths and, equally important, civilian deaths due to excessive force? It is reasonable that the reduction of no-knock warrants and de-programming of warrior training could reduce both. Many chiefs of police have intentionally decided to walk back these practices ... getting it to trickle down to the beat has been hard.

11 hours ago, thrifty said:

wife just told me about this story below. not the first time, emt/fire gets attacked too but it seems relevant to this.

"Virginia Beach firefighters attacked while trying to save motorcyclist’s life, officials say"

http://www.pilotonline.com/news/crime/vp-nw-first-responders-attacked-20200701-tm2vicd7tjel3okvueonj46sju-story.html

Firefighters have it especially rough. Agitators consider them soft targets. It doesn't take much to be an agitator. Sure we have political extremists, but we also have a generation of people the majority of whom have not been trained in bravery. They become emotional and lash out at the softest target -- and emt/fire seem to be that target.

The number of scouts in a crowd who can volunteer to maintain order are fewer. There's a reason why some other nations underwrite the cost of boy and girl scouting.

Edited July 3, 2020 by qwazse

[Troop75Eagle]

There is a tug of war among concepts, crime/punishment/self control/self improvement/retribution/ redemption.  All have their place.  
 

When it comes to personal crime, especially violent crime, society sort of takes a back seat insofar as reconciliation between perpetrator and victim (on an emotional level).  Wergild or it’s modern equivalent in civil damages doesn’t heal the lasting trauma.  My hat is off to the young man who was able to reconcile to himself the crime and move on.  In this case, they both seem to have benefitted.  
 

Insofar as social justice is concerned, crime has everything to do with it.  The two are joined at the hip tighter than a grating tectonic plates.  Social justice and social virtues are in conflict as ideas and these give rise to all pets of problems and areas directly related to ideas of social justice and injustice.  The social contract is an old concept that I think has great merit.  Many parts of that idea can and should be debated.  I have been unable find a consistent and workable definition of ‘racial injustice’ as a stand-alone phrase.  To be sure, I see ‘racial inequality’, ‘systemic oppression’, ‘direct and indirect discrimination’ and so forth.  
 

Words represent concepts, concepts determine perceptions, that respond to the actions and attitudes of other which get translated into yet more actions.  The idea of justice is badly misused. So tossing about words in expectation that everyone who is intelligent and reasonable will agree upon the definition is not a good approach.  Give terms clarity in definition do at least people can agree and debate the same idea at the outset.  Otherwise, people talk past one another. 

[David CO]

18 minutes ago, Troop75Eagle said:

The two are joined at the hip tighter than a grating tectonic plates.

I gave you an up-vote for using an Earth Science term.  Unfortunately,  justice for victims is being pushed under like an oceanic plate in a subduction zone.

Edited July 3, 2020 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

  

On 7/3/2020 at 7:58 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Commitment against racial injustice...perhaps leadership by example, consider the rest of the story of the 2007 armed robbery of a Boy Scout Christmas tree lot.

https://www.sent-trib.com/news/man-forms-unlikely-friendship-with-robber-12-years-later/article_da6b0f40-ed55-11e9-bb90-f3ae42f51121.html

 

If it matters, Mr. Hodge pleaded guilty to nine counts of Armed Robbery.  In sentencing, the trial judge consolidated some of the charges as a matter of discretion, and sentenced him on five of the counts of Armed Robbery.   The charges for felonious assault and battery on the robbery victims were drooped in their entirely in consideration of Mr. Hodge's guilty plea to the nine Armed Robbery charges. The 2010 appeal resulted in no change to his sentence,  the Ohio Supreme Court voting 6-1 to reject his only argument on appeal.

Edited July 8, 2020 by RememberSchiff