Civil Protest, Policing, Moving Forward

[Navybone]

3 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Additional thought: The Sun-Times is strongly biased towards liberal causes....

Sun-Times is Left Center.  https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/?s=chicago+sun

[Navybone]

When you are looking at reporting on such issues as protest and BLM, I would ask that you do keep a sharp eye on what is being reported.  This is a great article by NYT on Russian disinformation and an attempt to widen the gulf btwn the political parties.  We have issues in this country, lets not help Russia (or Chinese) attempts to bring us down from within.  Question the reporting, even if it is confirming your own bias. 

About three years ago, when it was BLM versus Blue lives matter in the press all the time, Twitter was able to track the post made by russian trolls and how they would insert them selves into a conversation with a centrist point of view, and then pull it wider to the polar extremes. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html

 

[TAHAWK]

But your source is questionable.  

The "issue" was whether Ariel Atkins spoke for Black lives matter given that media you find "conservative" identified her as such.  Turns out media that are clearly left-wing AND Black Lives Matter itself identify her as speaking for Black Lives Matter.  Ariel Atkins is a Russian agent provocateur?  She's been at it for years.  Sleeper agent?

[walk in the woods]

3 hours ago, Navybone said:

When you are looking at reporting on such issues as protest and BLM, I would ask that you do keep a sharp eye on what is being reported.  This is a great article by NYT on Russian disinformation and an attempt to widen the gulf btwn the political parties.  We have issues in this country, lets not help Russia (or Chinese) attempts to bring us down from within.  Question the reporting, even if it is confirming your own bias. 

About three years ago, when it was BLM versus Blue lives matter in the press all the time, Twitter was able to track the post made by russian trolls and how they would insert them selves into a conversation with a centrist point of view, and then pull it wider to the polar extremes. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html

 

Sorry @Navybone but you dismissed one series of reports based on bias.  When shown a different report from a mainstream media outlet you deflect to Russians?  That's laughable but typical.  Beyond that, anyone who has actually picked up a copy of the SunTimes in the last 10 years knows exactly where their politics lie.

[Navybone]

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

Sorry @Navybone but you dismissed one series of reports based on bias.  When shown a different report from a mainstream media outlet you deflect to Russians?  That's laughable but typical.  Beyond that, anyone who has actually picked up a copy of the SunTimes in the last 10 years knows exactly where their politics lie.

I can see how you might think that had I made a reference to the previous post, but I did not.  
 

my post was about Russian (and Chinese) efforts to divide the American populous as a whole.  But you obviously do not agree with that as a real threat.   , right.  Us intel community is clueless?  Your too smart to fall for it?  

[qwazse]

8 hours ago, Navybone said:

I can see how you might think that had I made a reference to the previous post, but I did not.  
 

my post was about Russian (and Chinese) efforts to divide the American populous as a whole.  But you obviously do not agree with that as a real threat.   , right.  Us intel community is clueless?  Your too smart to fall for it?  

And this is why our scouts should be encouraged to meet directly with BLM and LEO to provide venues for orderly discussions.

Nothing ruins a propaganda machine more than kids asking tough questions.

Patrol, verb: observe and report.

[TAHAWK]

13 hours ago, Navybone said:

I can see how you might think that had I made a reference to the previous post, but I did not.  
 

my post was about Russian (and Chinese) efforts to divide the American populous as a whole.  But you obviously do not agree with that as a real threat.   , right.  Us intel community is clueless?  Your too smart to fall for it?  

Americans are doing a fabulous job on their own.   

 

U.S. Intel repportedly leaked the view that the Russians impacted the 2016 election.  The U.S. Government under Obama disagreed.   So we must try to access the weight to be given the unofficial reports of an officially  questionable source.

[TAHAWK]

Portland protesters, rioters target police with lasers and fireworks outside federal courthouse

Portland protesters and rioters returned to a federal courthouse late Wednesday into early Thursday morning, launching fireworks toward police, shining lasers into officers’ eyes and splashing at least one cop with paint, authorities said Thursday morning.

Several hundreds of people in the Oregon city gathered near the Mark O. Hatfield U.S. Courthouse, the neighboring Multnomah County Justice Center and a nearby police precinct station after nights of demonstrations elsewhere, including a different precinct and the offices of Portland Police Association.

The group set off commercial-grade fireworks in the direction of the fence protecting the courthouse shortly after 10:30 p.m. Police ordered them over the loudspeaker to “stop launching fireworks and starting fires,” according to a press release.

nstead, some members of the group allegedly responded by shining lasers into the faces of officers making the announcements. Others blocked traffic and started at least one small fire in front of a nearby precinct, authorities said.

Police declared an unlawful assembly shortly after 11:30 p.m., but the events continued to escalate.

“A large explosive and other fireworks were thrown towards officers, along with fist sized rocks, bottles, and cans of paint,” police said.

By midnight, police reclassified the unlawful assembly as a riot, at which point the group allegedly moved back toward the area of the courthouse.

“They threw eggs and continued to launch commercial grade fireworks towards officers,” police said.

The crowd had dissipated by roughly 2:30 a.m. but not before someone vandalized a police car parked in the area.

Over the course of the night, officers used tear gas to break up the crowd. Several people were arrested and multiple police officers were hurt, including one who suffered a severe hand injury.

Associated Press

 

Sounds like the Russians?

[TAHAWK]

The Chicago Black Lives Matter organizer who justified looting as “reparation” has doubled down — insisting this week that even calling someone a criminal is “based on racism.”

Ariel Atkins told WBEZ that her group “100 percent” supports the violent looters who trashed chunks of the Windy City Monday, again repeating her claim that it is “reparations.”

“The whole idea of criminality is based on racism anyway,” she told the NPR station.

“Because criminality is punishing people for things that they have needed to do to survive or just the way that society has affected them with white supremacist BS,” she said.

“I will support the looters till the end of the day. If that’s what they need to do in order to eat, then that’s what you’ve got to do to eat,” she said of those who even tried to smash their way into a Ronald McDonald House caring for sick children and their families.

Atkins dismissed the idea that civil rights had “ever gotten wins” from “peaceful protests.”

“Winning has come through revolts. Winning has come through riots,” she said.

...

Atkins had no sympathy for the businesses damaged in the spree, which included a small convenience store likely to go out of business after being looted twice in months.

“The fact that anybody gives a s–t about these businesses over what is happening in this city right now and the pain that people are in and the suffering that is taking place, I don’t care,” she admitted.

 

[DuctTape]

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

Americans are doing a fabulous job on their own.   

 

U.S. Intel repportedly leaked the view that the Russians impacted the 2016 election.  The U.S. Government under Obama disagreed.   So we must try to access the weight to be given the unofficial reports of an officially  questionable source.

The intelligence community monitored and assessed intentions, capabilities and actions of foreign actors. While it did find significant intent and actions by Moscow to use cyber tools and media campaigns to influence public opinion, it did not analyze U.S. processes or public opinion. 

The report made no assessment on the impact the activities had on the outcome. Either in agreement or disagreement. 

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3719492/Read-the-declassified-report-on-Russian.pdf

 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

The intelligence community monitored and assessed intentions, capabilities and actions of foreign actors.

I am not at all surprised that foreign nations try to influence American elections.  I have no doubt that our leaders try to influence other countries' elections too.  It would be pretty naïve for us to think otherwise.  

The question that is important to this forum is whether or not foreign nations try to influence, disrupt, and divide the members of BSA.  I think nyet.  

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by David CO
typo?

[TAHAWK]

I do not understand that U.S intelligence did officially conclude there was impact.  Which is why I did not say they did.

 

To believe that they did not attempt to access effect seems is to suggest that they are incompetent.

 

We are more than Scouters here.  We are more than BSA Scouting devotees here.  As Americans, we should be interested in whether any foreign nation is impacting our political processes.

[Navybone]

13 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

I do not understand that U.S intelligence did officially conclude there was impact.  Which is why I did not say they did.

 

To believe that they did not attempt to access effect seems is to suggest that they are incompetent.

 

We are more than Scouters here.  We are more than BSA Scouting devotees here.  As Americans, we should be interested in whether any foreign nation is impacting our political processes.

Correct, we should be very interested in a foreign (Russia, China) power is. trying to impact our country.  And they are not stopping at the 2016 election, they are trying on this election, did on the 2018 election, and will continue to try to divide this country.  They have done it in other counties, most notably France.

The intent of my post on this was to point out that what you read is not only biased by our media, but but external influences who are trying to further divide this nation. 

[TAHAWK]

The issue that I addressed was whether a Black Lives Matter representative stated that looting was acceptable.  You suggested that the sources that you  named saying that she did express that view were "conservative," implying that this made them untrustworthy. I cited several non-conservative sources for the same story, including Black Lives Matter itself.  The representative of SBLM, Ariel Atkins, then told NPR - a left-wing source: " that her group '100 percent' supports the violent looters who trashed chunks of the Windy City Monday, again repeating her claim that it is 'reparations.”'  'The whole idea of criminality is based on racism anyway,”' she told ... NPR...."   So, in Ms. Atkins' world view, Blacks - or Asians - who murder other Black persons are not "criminals."

SBLM has not come forward to repudiate Ms. Atkins' spew.

This seems to me to be unrelated to Russian perfidy and very much related to SBLM perfidy.

Edited August 13, 2020 by TAHAWK

[MattR]

21 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

a Black Lives Matter representative

Maybe you could dig into that a bit. Representative of what? Do they have an organization? An address? Is there a way to ask them a question? A contact page? A FAQ? Is there leadership, ways to solve problems, voting, a way to come to consensus, make decisions, anything that is more than just a hashtag and a vague description of what they want? The answer to all of this is no.

As best I can tell they have a website and a wiki page. The website is very vague and the wiki references web pages that no longer exist on the website. At one point in time the website had a list of 13 guiding principles but that web page no longer exists so any ideas of what BLM stands for has to be gleaned from other pages on the website.

There are currently 16 chapters in the US and 3 in Canada. In order to become a chapter all you have to do is fill out a form and then someone, from somewhere, will get back to you, probably just to make sure you're for real. There are no other requirements.

So, again, what is this representative representing?  With no framework all that's left is what ever anyone wants it to be. It's just an inkblot. The person that said go ahead and pillage and plunder wants it to be a mechanism of revenge. All the people that dislike the term BLM wants it to be evil, so they pick and choose what to respond to. All the people that like the term want it to be a source of good. Since it can be anything to anyone, it's really nothing. Certainly it's nothing to criticize and use to make an argument about.

There's a great article by David Brooks about how radicals bring important problems to light but aren't able to solve them. That requires more pragmatism. So maybe the "BLM representative" that you dislike so much is the radical bringing important problems to light. It's time to move on to someone more important to pay attention to that is more pragmatic.