Civil Protest, Policing, Moving Forward

[TAHAWK]

“I read a post today at another site that reminded me that my favorite fictional detective, Harry Bosch, put it so well:  "Everybody matters or nobody matters.”

[TAHAWK]

Of course, the "woke: were not there at the time, but Frederick Douglass was: "To Grant more than any other man the Negro owes his enfranchisement.”

The Legions of Ignorance  are unimpressed with the view of Douglass, to the extent they know of Douglass at all:

"Protesters in San Francisco on Friday toppled the statue of former President Grant, who led the Union Army during the Civil War, in Golden Gate Park.

San Francisco police said that approximately 400 people gathered around 8 p.m. to take down the statue, though no arrests were made, according to NBC Bay Area."

"Saturday, June 20, 2020, in San Francisco, Calif. [San Francisco Chronicle]

The toppling of Ulysses Grant’s statue in Golden Gate Park on Friday night reminds us that we need an engaged, passionate debate about Grant’s legacy, but we cannot depend upon the whims of a dictatorial mob to deepen our understanding of our nation’s troubling history."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thrifty]

I would just like to point out that Yahoo isn't even allowing comments on its articles anymore. 

"Our goal is to create a safe and engaging place for users to connect over interests and passions. In order to improve our community experience, we are temporarily suspending article commenting. In the meantime, we welcome your feedback to help us enhance the experience. "

[TAHAWK]

The raw hate in comments by both extremes is stunning.

[Troop75Eagle]

9 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

The raw hate in comments by both extremes is stunning.

Covid is making things 100x worse.  Job uncertainty, spending down savings, rent/mortgage/business collapse/ constant defcon 5 alerts and fb plenty of time to sit around frustrated soaking up social strife.  I can’t even think of a good analogy except a furnace of a kitchen with nowhere to move but crowded with ill tempered people trying to work.  
 

politics was already appalling with its social strife, but Covid makes it intolerable.

[TAHAWK]

 

 

AP calls them: "Protesters."

Edited July 27, 2020 by TAHAWK

[John-in-KC]

On 7/26/2020 at 9:46 PM, TAHAWK said:

 

AP calls them: "Protesters."

I call that a riot. 

[skeptic]

On 7/24/2020 at 7:54 AM, Troop75Eagle said:

Covid is making things 100x worse.  Job uncertainty, spending down savings, rent/mortgage/business collapse/ constant defcon 5 alerts and fb plenty of time to sit around frustrated soaking up social strife.  I can’t even think of a good analogy except a furnace of a kitchen with nowhere to move but crowded with ill tempered people trying to work.  
 

politics was already appalling with its social strife, but Covid makes it intolerable.

Sorry, but I find it foolish to blame ignorance, bad actions, and rude or worse language on a virus.  Covid does not make people do these things.  They make the choice, and use the idea of Covid stress as an excuse.  JMHO of course.

 

[TAHAWK]

You are imaging this scene, per CNN:

"18 people face federal charges after arrests at courthouse protests in Portland"

 

[Troop75Eagle]

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I find it foolish to blame ignorance, bad actions, and rude or worse language on a virus.  Covid does not make people do these things.  They make the choice, and use the idea of Covid stress as an excuse.  JMHO of course.

 

I never said it was an excuse. It is an aggravating factor.  Many things manipulate human reason and behavior ranging from inflamed passions, intoxicants, starvation, group rage, fear, etc.  Even climate starts to make a difference, it’s a known observation that the more a place is hot and the more crowded it becomes, the more irritable and hostile people get.  If humans were cyborgs or Vulcans we wouldn’t have these variations in behaviors.  As it is, we recognize a wide range of behaviors for all sorts of situations and have many science, social science, history, art and philosophy  to demonstrate the variations.

the Black Death and fervor over the crusades saw religious hysteria, visions, persecutions.  So call it what you want.  Covid and it’s consequences are aggravating factors on the human psyche and behavior.  Again, I never said it was an excuse, but human rationality and decision making are anything but separate from these realities.

[TAHAWK]

[MattR]

@TAHAWK, I read enough news elsewhere. Honestly, what's the point of these posts? It looks like you're saying there is vandalism and violence. I agree. I also read some great comments, of all things, about how "back in the day" peaceful protesters had to be extra vigilant to expel violent protesters because it just takes one bad protester to to completely skew the coverage away from the peaceful protest. Kind of like how a few bad cops might skew the work of many good cops. So where are we now? There are a few violent protesters and a few violent cops making their own news cycles in the middle of a pandemic that is killing a thousand people a day and completely trashing the economy to levels very few still living have seen before while congress is frozen in a quicksand of acrimony and constitutional crisis that has resulted in a political climate that makes everyone walk around on egg shells for fear of setting of huge arguments while we're socially distancing and washing our hands a lot while we discuss the fall of scouting. Have I covered the past few months well enough?

[Troop75Eagle]

59 minutes ago, MattR said:

@TAHAWK, I read enough news elsewhere. Honestly, what's the point of these posts? It looks like you're saying there is vandalism and violence. I agree. I also read some great comments, of all things, about how "back in the day" peaceful protesters had to be extra vigilant to expel violent protesters because it just takes one bad protester to to completely skew the coverage away from the peaceful protest. Kind of like how a few bad cops might skew the work of many good cops. So where are we now? There are a few violent protesters and a few violent cops making their own news cycles in the middle of a pandemic that is killing a thousand people a day and completely trashing the economy to levels very few still living have seen before while congress is frozen in a quicksand of acrimony and constitutional crisis that has resulted in a political climate that makes everyone walk around on egg shells for fear of setting of huge arguments while we're socially distancing and washing our hands a lot while we discuss the fall of scouting. Have I covered the past few months well enough?

The purpose of these posts includes the opportunity to flesh out background problems in society as a whole as it might indirectly affect scouting, it’s mission, the need to determine an understanding of the parameters the traditional scouting program should take.  
 

people here enjoy a little sparring and weed out provocateurs and trolls to blow off steam in the changes that are taking place.  Expanding understanding and the scope of change and having a forum to respond to it is important.  The forum is a healthy place to do this and needed for the sake of its members who otherwise feel cut off from a meaningful place to air their sentiments.  It is a constructive place along to a coffee shop where people talk.  It’s not meant to be a policy referendum or convention.  
 

There are many threads to chose from and start.  This makes an ideal formula for those wishing to add and comment to do so.  Comments have tapered off recently but keeping the conversation open to any who wish to air grievances and discuss what they will. Nuanced terms like ‘few’ versus ‘many’ or new information can be insightful.  That is the continuing hope of the forum though the desire and patience of members to continue will vary. 

[TAHAWK]

3 hours ago, MattR said:

@TAHAWK, I read enough news elsewhere. Honestly, what's the point of these posts? It looks like you're saying there is vandalism and violence. I agree. I also read some great comments, of all things, about how "back in the day" peaceful protesters had to be extra vigilant to expel violent protesters because it just takes one bad protester to to completely skew the coverage away from the peaceful protest. Kind of like how a few bad cops might skew the work of many good cops. So where are we now? There are a few violent protesters and a few violent cops making their own news cycles in the middle of a pandemic that is killing a thousand people a day and completely trashing the economy to levels very few still living have seen before while congress is frozen in a quicksand of acrimony and constitutional crisis that has resulted in a political climate that makes everyone walk around on egg shells for fear of setting of huge arguments while we're socially distancing and washing our hands a lot while we discuss the fall of scouting. Have I covered the past few months well enough?

This is the" Issues & and Politics" subforum, Matt, created for the purpose of keeping such things out of the other subforums.  Your presence here is voluntary.  We are all guests here, and if the management wants no discussion of Issues and Politics, I will comply.  Until then:  

Once, mobs of rioters attempting to destroy a federal court house and lobbing incendiary devices at law enforcement officers would be lead news.  We supposedly have "A government of laws, not men.  Not today, when most of the media promote a given political narrative that wants to depict these rioters as "protesters" and "demonstrators."

Nor is there, as you suggest, a "moral equivalency" between sworn law enforcement officers and mobs of violent criminals, mostly White, attempting to "Burn down the system."  If there were, flaming gasoline - and bullets -  would be coming back across the fence.

Beyond the efforts to burn the federal courthouse, the Portland Police Association building was broken into and set on fire. by "mostly peaceful demonstrators."

Even the BLM Party has complained of these violent enemies of civil society "hijacking" the BLP Party movement, which Portland rioters apparently find too moderate.

BLM says it aims to "defund" police, eliminate courts, close prisons, eliminate present criminal law, and secure $quadrillions in "reparations."  Or it will "burn the system down."  

In 2018, the extreme leftist  Atlantic editorialized that violence is acceptable in pursuit of change that you find to be essential, citing Dr, King, of all people, in defense of violence.

Meanwhile, by orders of magnitude, the greatest shooters and killers of Black civilians, including pre-school children, are Black civilians., rather than "cops" of any ethnicity.

Portland:

KGW8 reports:

Friday, May 29

It started Friday afternoon with a peaceful gathering organized by the NAACP and then a vigil in the evening at North Portland's Peninsula Park.

The vigil was organized by activist group PNW Youth Liberation Front. Hundreds of people, spread out across the park, showed up to honor Floyd and listen to speakers.

"We stand with the grieving family of George," said Rev. Roy Tate of Christ Memorial Community Church while addressing the crowd. "Those who are in Minneapolis, we stand tonight with them."

At around 9 p.m., the group of protesters started to march down Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard while chanting, "black lives matter," "no justice, no peace," and "I can't breathe."

The event turned quickly, however, as some demonstrators broke away from the group and started vandalizing businesses along Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard. The rioters and looters shattered store windows and tagged buildings with graffiti that police say stretched for 20 blocks.

At around 10 p.m., a protester fired a shot at an occupied car on Northeast 7th Avenue and Morris Street. A person inside the car was grazed by a bullet and treated at a local hospital.

The march reached downtown, where demonstrators broke into and started a fire inside the Multnomah County Justice Center, home to hundreds of inmates. No inmates were injured.

Other protesters set fires throughout downtown, torching dumpsters, trash cans, cars and pallets. Police deemed the demonstration a riot and used tear gas, flash-bang grenades and other uses of force to disperse protesters. 

Demonstrators used electric scooters to smash police cars at Southwest 4th Avenue and Yamhill Street. Two officers were hurt. One was hit by an incendiary device and another was struck in the head with a rock. Both will be OK.

Police arrested 13 protesters and early Saturday morning, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler declared a state of emergency and enacted a citywide curfew from 8 p.m. to 6 a.m.

"I cannot condone last night's violence," Wheeler said during a press conference Saturday morning. "I can't stand by and watch our city be destroyed, buildings set aflame. I won't. But nor will I stand silent as men like George Floyd are murdered by the very institutions that are supposed to protect and serve them."

JULY 3 (KVAL)

Late last week, some protesters barricaded the doors to a police precinct a half-block from Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and set fire to the building, which also houses Black-owned businesses, including an Ethiopian restaurant and a barber's school. Two nights later, a potluck at a park in the heart of the Black community morphed into another violent clash with police, who unleashed tear gas to quell the crowd of several hundred people.

The change has angered and frustrated some in the Black community, who say a "white fringe element" is distracting from their message with senseless destruction in a city where nearly three-quarters of residents are white and less than 6% are Black.

"This is NOT the Black Lives Matter movement. This is chaos," Kali Ladd, executive director of KairosPDX, wrote in a Facebook post. "These white actors are enacting dominance in a different form under the guise of equity ... White supremacy has many forms."

 

"The Portland NAACP complained that “mostly white anarchists” have incited violence and diverted attention from the purpose of the protests."

LOCAL10.COM

"One prominent Black leader wrote to Mayor Ted Wheeler and said some clashes had unfolded three blocks from his house. He said the problem was with “elements” that were “99% white” and did not represent the Black Lives Matter movement."

“It has nothing to do with helping Black people. These hoodlums are needlessly scaring neighbors and their children,” said Ron Herndon, who has fought for racial justice in Portland for four decades and led a school boycott in 1979 after the city closed predominantly Black schools. “At some point, enough is enough.”

Newly appointed Police Chief Chuck Lovell, who is Black, said the violence in North Portland was “offensive and hurtful” and has cost the city at least $6.2 million in overtime for its officers.

“People in that neighborhood were upset. That’s not something they’re going to tolerate ... and they came out and were very vocal,” Lovell said. “I think people sometimes look at the protest movement as one homogeneous group — and there’s definitely a segment here that is very violent.

...

A few blocks away, Carl Baskin sat next to his drive-up car wash station and worried that the message of racial justice was being taken away from the Black community by “young white children.”

USING LASERS TO DAMAGE EYESIGHT OF FEDERAL OFFICERS

ANTIFA JOB CREATION PREGRAM

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by TAHAWK

[MattR]

@TAHAWK, when I asked you what the point of your posts were, I really was asking a question. I never said you couldn't post. I'm having to wade through all your posts to figure out what it is that you're getting at. There are many ways to read these pictures. I mentioned all the other things going on just as a way to say, yep, this is a bad summer, and violent protesters are just part of it, so what's new?

2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

A few blocks away, Carl Baskin sat next to his drive-up car wash station and worried that the message of racial justice was being taken away from the Black community by “young white children.”

Is this it? I suspect, from what you've written before it could be, but, and I'm trying to be polite here, you have a way of posting things and not explaining, clearly, what you're trying to get at. It may be very clear to you but it's not always clear to me. It's clear that you're very passionate about most everything you contribute on this forum (and I do appreciate it) but sometimes the passion comes through a lot more than the specifics.

I'm going to assume your point is close to Carl's point, that a small number of violent people can just change the whole focus of a moment. Thus, since we are led by rules, these people should follow those rules.

I read an interesting comment the other day, related to the violent protesters, and the post was about how in the 60's there was absolutely no tolerance from protesters for any violence from protesters. Everyone knew that any excuse for the police to start being rough was going to take away from their message. Another idea was that when there are a few bad people causing violence and the police response is to inflict violence on everyone, including those that are peaceful, does that violate free speech? Something to think about.

But a more impressive discussion came from an old scout in my troop that is now a cop. He talked about the training he got in deescalation. He was trained to back off and let things calm down as much as possible. He also said some police departments do that and many don't. Those where the police live in the areas they work tend to do that and those that live elsewhere don't. That alone has clarified so much of what I'm seeing in the news.

Anyway, I'm hoping that clarifies my comments.

Edited July 30, 2020 by MattR