Civil Protest, Policing, Moving Forward

[Troop75Eagle]

1 hour ago, awanatech said:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2020/06/24/answering-common-questions-about-the-bsas-commitment-to-act-against-racial-injustice/

Just as a reminder, the BSA stands with and supports Black Lives Matters. Despite the BLM speakers declaring that (law enforcement) officers should have been strangled by their umbilical cords as babies and that the speakers are ready to shoot the officers. Despite the BLM organizers endorsing the rioting and looting, since businesses have insurance to cover their loss.  Despite BLM organizers justifying the looting, by calling it reparations.  In the Bryan on Scouting article linked above, it mentions the Scout Oath & Law.  I guess we are to overlook the Oath & Law when we look at the words and actions of these Black Lives Matters activists?

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/blm-organizer-who-called-looting-reparations-doubles-down/

You validate what should be obvious.  But there will be apologists for groups that have become  a masquerade for every conceivable action imaginable.  The apologists will never concede the reality.  You’re wasting your time.  As you can see and has been the case, no amount of evidence will ever shake loose the narratives that must be maintained at all costs no matter how ridiculous to the contrary.  Nothing would shaken the scales from their eyes and if thousands burned businesses and looted the acts would be conceded as wrong, but the organization still valid.  
 

The forum has outlived its purpose.  The apologists will go on to say the means justify the ends no matter what the cost.  There is no threshold of civility or morality that can be crossed, no price to bloody or twisted.  History has plenty of these examples.
 

 People can  read the news from various centrist and reliable agencies like Reuter’s, Assoc Press, and others and see the facts and figures.  They can hear the expressly given intent and justifications and rationalizations and vine to the obvious conclusions regarding a subject.  
 

There are also those who might do the same thing and simply waive away the obvious conclusions and fumble out a half baked acknowledgement that some of the acts are wrong.  The reality, however, is that the latter, like the apologist, engage in willful blindness and will let no reality come between them and what their chosen narrative is.  They may as well click the heels of their ruby slippers three times and transport themselves to a different reality.  I’ve come to the conclusion that some of those types I’ve seen on this forum have not, do not and will not ever have the true interests of scouting in their heart.  
 

Sadly, it seems that like their position, it must be that they prefer the whole system burn to ground in chaotic ashes before ever considering their conclusions grossly  in error.  I hope the rest of you carry on the interest here, because I’ve grown weary of such people.  
 

 

[TAHAWK]

I will never feel what it is like to be a Black person in America -  or Asian, Indian , Irish, Appalachian, Jew,  Hindu,  Romani, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness,  Catholic, or Gay.  I have tried to learn as well as I can from friends, co-workers, roommates, and fellow Scouts and Scouters, some of whom fall into each of these categories.  I did my thesis on right-wing groups, most of which hate anyone different and positively yearn for race war.  

Like the ACLU, to which I once belonged,  and like most "media" outlets, BLM is a fundamentally political organization.  It takes positions on political issues.  Its leaders endorse political candidates.  It claims racism is "systemic" and demands changes in our system of government, including Black "sovereignty,"  on pain of violence and looting. 

"Black Lives Matter" has a clear "secondary meaning" - a meaning said by BLM to be inconsistent with "All Lives Matter."  BSA can ignore its Bylaws and implicitly endorse whatever political movement that they chose. BSA is a private entity.    BSA can take any "position" for  itself that it desires.   As an NAACP member before most of the BSA bureaucrats were alive, what BSA cannot do is speak for me.

An entertainer, Bob Gibson, recently spoke regarding racial relations in the U.S. He said said "[P]eople haven't done enough to combat racism since his playing days."  Others agree that more should be done.  I do.

Then he said,  "[N]othing has changed. Period."    No one in the MSM called him on that last, utter absurdity, and, indeed, other sports entertainers have agreed to one extent or another.  Former President Obama must be hurt to be forgotten in less than four years.      Most here can add other names to that list.  Apparently their Black lives did not , and do not,  "matter" to today's "woke."   Apparently, all the courage, work, suffering and death that went on for generations does not "matter" to these "activists."  It was "nothing" compared to what they threaten to "accomplish."  Such narcissism.

Suggesting that law enforcement officers, as a category, should somehow be killed at birth and  cooked "like bacon" is the same hate that drives other forms of prejudice - and is  ironically National Socialist in tone.   National Socialists also wanted their target category dead before or at birth or, otherwise,  ASAP, and literally burned them like "bacon."  Anyone thinking that the solution for hate is greater hate and creating greater fear is nuts.  Hate breeds hate.  Violence breeds violence.   Ask history how  hate as a policy worked out for the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

I'll soon be dead, having outlived Boy Scouting and the Democratic Party that I joined in 1960.  I had hoped to see Boy Scouting and a healthy nation survive me.  Silly old codger.

 

 

 

 

 

[TAHAWK]

"The U.S. Marshals Service recovered [39] ...  missing children in Ohio in a two-week stretch as part of an ongoing operation....

'Over the weekend U.S. Marshals rescued dozens of missing children across Ohio, many of whom were being trafficked.' Gov. Mike DeWine said during a Tuesday news conference.

'Operation Safety Net' is still in its first two weeks and is ongoing, according to the Marshals Service. It's being carried out in conjunction with local law enforcement agencies around northern Ohio."

 

BLM: "Defund the police."

[TAHAWK]

"A California district attorney is requiring her prosecutors to consider looters’ “needs” when weighing criminal charges against them. The new mandate, set forth by Contra Costa County District Attorney Diane Becton, makes it tougher to prosecute looting cases in the county....I

Investigators must now consider “was this theft offense substantially motivated by the state of emergency, or simply a theft offense which occurred contemporaneously to the declared state of emergency?,” according to the policy reported by local outlet East County Today.
 

In making that determination, they must also consider five other factors, including “was the theft committed for financial gain or personal need?”

The new policy comes amid the swell of protests, looting and riots in the wake of police-involved shootings of black people across the country.

Becton, a 22-year judge in Contra Costa County who was elected DA in 2017, is the county’s first female and African American to serve as the county’s chief law enforcement officer.

Her new policy drew strong rebukes from Antioch, [California] Mayor Sean Wright and the president of the Antioch police union."

This is the straight Chicago BLM Party Line espoused by its spokeswoman last week - recognition of a fundamental right to steal.  BSA?  BSA?  BSA?  Position?

 

[RememberSchiff]

 

23 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

...topic and Scouting related...

A Gilroy man was back in court Tuesday after being accused of violent threats against Santa Clara County Public Health Officer Dr. Sara Cody.

The Santa Clara County sheriff also believes Alan Viarengo is part of the "Boogaloo Movement," a loosely organized, right-wing, anti-government group that advocates extreme violence and civil war.

The 55-year-old Viarengo is also a professor at Gavilan College in Gilroy involved in Boy Scouts of America. The organization issued a statement saying in part, “This individual has been removed from Scouting and is prohibited from any future participation in our programs.”

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/detectives-seize-138-guns-explosives-owned-by-alleged-boogaloo-boy/2356051/

 

sorry for incomplete quote. If someone finds Council's full quote, please post. Thanks ~ RS

 

I found the full quote  as reported by NBC news.  IMHO, it speaks to a  BSA position more recognizable to us which I  had hoped this topic was "moving forward' towards - a well-considered BSA policy regarding good character and citizenship - the Scout Oath and Law for these troubled times.  Currently, we moderators are discussing the suitability of topics unrelated to Scouting even in I&P, after all, this is scouter.com not anothernews.com.   @MattR   @John-in-KC

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[elitts]

10 hours ago, awanatech said:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2020/06/24/answering-common-questions-about-the-bsas-commitment-to-act-against-racial-injustice/

Just as a reminder, the BSA stands with and supports Black Lives Matters. Despite the BLM speakers declaring that (law enforcement) officers should have been strangled by their umbilical cords as babies and that the speakers are ready to shoot the officers. Despite the BLM organizers endorsing the rioting and looting, since businesses have insurance to cover their loss.  Despite BLM organizers justifying the looting, by calling it reparations.  In the Bryan on Scouting article linked above, it mentions the Scout Oath & Law.  I guess we are to overlook the Oath & Law when we look at the words and actions of these Black Lives Matters activists?

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/blm-organizer-who-called-looting-reparations-doubles-down/

Just as a reminder, what the BSA's publication actually said was:

"The Boy Scouts of America stands with Black families and the Black community because we believe that Black Lives Matter." 

In fact the article you linked specifically states they ARE NOT supporting any political viewpoint or organization but that they stand behind the idea that existed before the organization that co-oped the phrase.  Much like someone can stand behind the idea that the USA is best served as a Republic, without supporting the Republicans.

[elitts]

7 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

"The U.S. Marshals Service recovered [39] ...  missing children in Ohio in a two-week stretch as part of an ongoing operation....

.

.

BLM: "Defund the police."

The US Marshals Service is not "the police"; and while I know there are idiots out there advocating the elimination of every law enforcement agency, that's not what most people chanting that phrase are talking about.  They are clearly talking about the local police forces they interact with on a regular basis. 

Not that I think "defund the police" is a reasonable idea, but misrepresenting things doesn't help anyone.

 

7 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

"A California district attorney is requiring her prosecutors to consider looters’ “needs” when weighing criminal charges against them. The new mandate, set forth by Contra Costa County District Attorney Diane Becton, makes it tougher to prosecute looting cases in the county....I

Investigators must now consider “was this theft offense substantially motivated by the state of emergency, or simply a theft offense which occurred contemporaneously to the declared state of emergency?,” according to the policy reported by local outlet East County Today.
 

In making that determination, they must also consider five other factors, including “was the theft committed for financial gain or personal need?”

The new policy comes amid the swell of protests, looting and riots in the wake of police-involved shootings of black people across the country.

 

I mean, considering the motivations of a crime has always been involved in the exercise of prosecutorial discretion.  Someone who steals $100 of diapers and baby formula is pretty much always going to be treated differently than someone who stole a $100 pair of headphones; this DA is simply making the policy formal instead of leaving it up to the discretion of individual ADAs.  I'll grant you that this announcement being made publicly is purely a PR move, but it's not like policies of this sort are somehow an abnormal or absurd action for a DA to take.

[ParkMan]

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I found the full quote  as reported by NBC news.  IMHO, it speaks to a  BSA position more recognizable to us which I  had hoped this topic was "moving forward' towards - a well-considered BSA policy regarding good character and citizenship - the Scout Oath and Law for these troubled times.  Currently, we moderators are discussing the suitability of topics unrelated to Scouting even in I&P, after all, this is scouter.com not anothernews.com.   @MattR   @John-in-KC

My vote:

New subforum seperate from I&P which allows for more general discussion.  If we are already here, why not have the ability to discuss items like this more generally amongst Scouters?

[RememberSchiff]

Sorry I don't understand your comment. 

[TAHAWK]

I will await the decision of the moderators.

[RememberSchiff]

Just now, TAHAWK said:

I will await the decision of the moderators.

@MattR  @John-in-KC

[Navybone]

12 hours ago, Troop75Eagle said:

The forum has outlived its purpose. 

 

Yep. 

[MattR]

6 hours ago, ParkMan said:

why not have the ability to discuss items like this more generally amongst Scouters?

I think discussion would be fine. However, I'm not seeing discussion. Minds are already made up. We may be polite-ish about speaking our minds but I'm not sure anyone has ever changed their mind reading the I&P threads. The first example I find looking up the page:

17 hours ago, Troop75Eagle said:

The apologists will never concede the reality.  You’re wasting your time.  As you can see and has been the case, no amount of evidence will ever shake loose the narratives that must be maintained at all costs no matter how ridiculous to the contrary.  Nothing would shaken the scales from their eyes and if thousands burned businesses and looted the acts would be conceded as wrong, but the organization still valid.  

Does this sound like discussion? Not to me. It sounds like someone has made up their mind and no amount of discussion will change anything. So why get everyone's blood pressure up? How does this help the scouts?

I come to this forum to get away from the near constant tribalism I see in politics today. Really complex problems are simplified based on tribal affiliation. Until we appreciate that we're all in this together we're just going to keep arguing.

But that's all easy to talk about in vague terms. How about a concrete example. Tahawk said he's unsure what it's like to be a minority. I have an idea about that. When I hear about vigilantes with rifles I'm worried. So I'm interested in Kyle Rittenhouse. He has become a poster boy of sorts. On the left, he's an example of how white supremacists are encouraging violence. On the right he's an example of self defense. So you just know that if we started discussing this it would devolve into an argument about gun control. The same old arguments will come out. Liberals are this, the GOP is that, blah blah. But all of this arguing misses the real tragedy. Why was a 17 year old kid, who could be a scout by the way, at a protest with a gun? That's a great point of discussion. What forces pushed this kid into the street with a gun? People? Social media? I don't know. But I'm guessing there would probably be very little discussion about how some kid's life was just ruined, along with the 2 people that died from bullet wounds. This is a tragedy. It is a failure of our culture. It's also an example of what some minorities are afraid of. These minorities all know that when things turn violent they get the worst of it.

Now, if you read all that and you really disagree and just want to let me know how wrong I really am, then there's the proof that we should stick to scout related subjects. it's at least something we can agree on. If you absolutely agree with me then that proves nothing. The question is how many of you are thinking this is a really complex issue? I just don't think there are many people in that category. Go ahead, try and prove me wrong.

So, yes, a real discussion could help scouts. It could put some meat on the ideas behind the Scout Emblem. That would be good. I just don't see how it will happen on this forum.

 

 

[David CO]

22 minutes ago, MattR said:

Now, if you read all that and you really disagree and just want to let me know how wrong I really am, then there's the proof that we should stick to scout related subjects.

I wish this wasn't a scout related subject.  I wish BSA had not publicly supported BLM.  But it did.  

[Navybone]

17 minutes ago, David CO said:

I wish this wasn't a scout related subject.  I wish BSA had not publicly supported BLM.  But it did.  

This thread gets no where.  BSA has explained its position “We wholeheartedly mean exactly what we said – that we support Black families and Black communities and that Black Lives Matter. This is not a political issue or an endorsement of an organization; it is a human rights issue and one we all have a duty to address. We stand with efforts to address racism and injustice and to promote equality and inclusion.”  but then this thread devolves into a political discussion, not at all addressing racism and what the words and intent of BSA are.
 

i come here to get away from the constant agreements from one side or the other that are a waste of time.  I have given up trying to have a conversation on this thread.  I stopped coming to the site for some time because this was all anyone posted on.   I recently came back, but see nothing has changed.   
 

if I am going to spend time online for fun, it is worth my time figure how to support my son’s troop during COVID.