Civil Protest, Policing, Moving Forward

[TAHAWK]

Cuyahoga County, Ohio, [Cleveland and suburbs] murder capital of Ohio, once had a "farm" out on the east end of the county (AKA "Workhouse").  Prisoners worked in the gardens, learned landscape gardening and learned how to farm .  It was closed about twenty-five years ago on the grounds that, as most of the inmates were Black, it was a 'slave plantation."  Of course, no one asked the inmates, becasue they didn't matter, as is the case with those slaughtered by civilians in today's urban "centers." The acreage was turned ointo large office buildings, hospitals, and an "up scale" shopping center, to the great enrichment of politically-connected "developers."  The "developers" wear masks today, as they should have back then.

[Troop75Eagle]

16 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Cuyahoga County, Ohio, [Cleveland and suburbs] murder capital of Ohio, once had a "farm" out on the east end of the county (AKA "Workhouse").  Prisoners worked in the gardens, learned landscape gardening and learned how to farm .  It was closed about twenty-five years ago on the grounds that, as most of the inmates were Black, it was a 'slave plantation."  Of course, no one asked the inmates, becasue they didn't matter, as is the case with those slaughtered by civilians in today's urban "centers." The acreage was turned ointo large office buildings, hospitals, and an "up scale" shopping center, to the great enrichment of politically-connected "developers."  The "developers" wear masks today, as they should have back then.

Slave camp huh.  Well, that doesn’t surprise me.  There will never be a shortage of people ready to destroy things and replace them with nothing or replace them with more cynical objectives.  The closest comparison outside of jails and farms are the big state mental hospitals that closed up.  The idea was to cut costs, preserve civil and human rights and curb abuses.  The alternative was to create community outpatient centers for treatment and support.  The places were shut down but the latter never was achieved.  So now they wander the streets,  get arrested in droves and get no treatment til they are jailed again briefly and released.  
 

I think the state hospitals were also self sufficient.  But they too were labeled as unfair competition.  Private institutions don’t have the same structures in place and I suspect zero incentive for self sufficiency which would give residents focus, structure and some purpose.  Once again, a public interest has been swept aside.  The consequences have been stigmatized people, transformation to habitual criminals and anything but preservation of a dignified and productive life.  

[Troop75Eagle]

Although I tend to be libertarian, this is one of those areas that free markets has a hard time appropriately dealing with.  Having custody over other human beings who are not able or allowed to do anything creates an unsettling opportunities for exploitation and profit incentive that minimize of ignore the social benefits.  If prisons and mental hospitals simply warehouse people for payments from the state, the rehabilitation, training, therapies and re-integration is too expensive to achieve profit margins.  
 

This isn’t especially about scouting Or it’s current myriad dilemmas but as a matter of civic and ethical responsibility for ones fellow countrymen and women, it can set the example of human worth and how to deal with issues the young will face.

[TAHAWK]

"So now they wander the streets,  get arrested in droves and get no treatment til they are jailed again briefly and released."

 

Every Winter around here, several are found dead from hypothermia.  

[Troop75Eagle]

2 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

"So now they wander the streets,  get arrested in droves and get no treatment til they are jailed again briefly and released."

 

Every Winter around here, several are found dead from hypothermia.  

There was one in OKC a few years back.  That shocked me.  I guess I just never heard about such things yet thinking on it, it must happen all the time.  They just get carted to the medical examiner and it’s marked hear disease, complications from diabetes or such like.  Unless the word leaks out that it was exposure, one wouldn’t notice.  I don’t think I’ve ever heard of starvation being one

[walk in the woods]

8 hours ago, elitts said:

So given that data, we have to conclude one of a few things must be true.

1. Something about the US leads to criminality at drastically higher rates than everywhere else in the world;
2. The US is just amazingly better at arresting and convicting criminals than everyone else in the world;
3. The US puts more people in jail for longer periods of time than everyone else in the world.

4. the US is in general a freer society, in the sense of negative freedoms, at least for now, therefore more people are likely to make bad choices

5. The US places, or at least used to place, a higher value on personal responsibility and accountability.

6. People in the US are more likely to flaunt government over-regulation of their personal life choices.

 

Comparing the US to individual countries in the EU is an apples to oranges comparison even if using rates.  It would be more appropriate to compare the US to the entire EU for a legitimate comparison just on a population and diversity basis.

[TAHAWK]

7. The calmer, more obedient types stayed home.

8. A more heterogeneous society than many.

9. Taught for two generations with public money  that the present economic and political systems are evil so their rules are not worthy of obedience.  "Burn it down!"  

10. Societal value of youth, inexperience, and ignorance over age, experience and knowledge.  E.G. "Tear down that statute  Of Frederick Douglass  - Black Lives Matter!" 

11. Told for three generations that  "You deserve more free stuff, and someone else should pay for it.," a belief that such is  "justice."   

 

 

[elitts]

16 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

4. the US is in general a freer society, in the sense of negative freedoms, at least for now, therefore more people are likely to make bad choices

             Hmm. More freedoms makes people more prone to criminality?  I suspect dictatorial governments would agree.  Though this would be under my option 1, not a separate possible conclusion.

5. The US places, or at least used to place, a higher value on personal responsibility and accountability.

            This is certainly true.  In particular, there are some Christian denominations that seem to believe forced personal responsibility and accountability are a moral duty.  Of course, this belief tends to not take into account the actual efficacy or cost of stiff punishments.

6. People in the US are more likely to flaunt government over-regulation of their personal life choices.

             This seems to be true also.  Ironically, this desire to flout authority over issues they see as "their freedoms" tends to be very narrowly focused and is often paired with a desire to stop other people from exercising their own personal life choices.  

Comparing the US to individual countries in the EU is an apples to oranges comparison even if using rates.  It would be more appropriate to compare the US to the entire EU for a legitimate comparison just on a population and diversity basis.

            We fair even worse if you include the entire EU.  I did the math and the average incarceration rate for the entire EU is 117 inmates per 100,000 population.  That makes our incarceration rate 530% higher than the EU's average rate.

 

17 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

7. The calmer, more obedient types stayed home.

            I dunno, given Australia's origins as a prison colony, if this were the case, you'd expect them to beat us.

8. A more heterogeneous society than many.

            The US is basically average when it comes to cultural diversity and is pretty close to most of the EU.

9. Taught for two generations with public money  that the present economic and political systems are evil so their rules are not worthy of obedience.  "Burn it down!"  

            It's ironic that a country founded by rebels now has such a strong contingent of folks who think conformity is what we should be teaching in schools.  I can't think this is really an isolated issue though, since pretty much EVERY generation in every country throughout history has thought their younger generations were full of silly liberal nonsense.

10. Societal value of youth, inexperience, and ignorance over age, experience and knowledge.  E.G. "Tear down that statute  Of Frederick Douglass  - Black Lives Matter!" 

           Again, this isn't anything unique to the US.  And the equally unreasonable other side to your argument is: "Why should we be expected to value inflexibility of thought, stagnation, technological ineptitude and entitlement over innovation, flexibility and energetic curiosity?"

11. Told for three generations that  "You deserve more free stuff, and someone else should pay for it.," a belief that such is  "justice."   

           This is exactly how I feel about anyone who feels entitled to Social Security and Medicare when it is, for all intents and purposes, "Welfare for Seniors".

 

 

[yknot]

You really can't compare EU to the US, or US to China or US to Russia. The cultures and experiences are very different. The EU in general is more tolerant of such things as drugs, prostitution, and other soft crimes. There is a debate whether the US should be as tough as it is. In addition, European and Asian societies are generally more orderly and respectful of authority figures than the US. But one of the reasons why our incarceration rate is higher is because our rates of hard crime are higher. The murder rate in the US is three times that of the EU; our burglary rate is four times as high. We have seven times the burglary rate of China. When it comes to capital punishment, however, we rank the same. The other problem when trying to compare international statistics on anything whether it's crime, education, or economic indicators is that the US is far more transparent than virtually all other societies. In our legal system, for example, if you are arrested, it becomes part of the public record. People do not just disappear the way they do in places like China and Russia. 

 

[Troop75Eagle]

40 minutes ago, yknot said:

You really can't compare EU to the US, or US to China or US to Russia. The cultures and experiences are very different. The EU in general is more tolerant of such things as drugs, prostitution, and other soft crimes. There is a debate whether the US should be as tough as it is. In addition, European and Asian societies are generally more orderly and respectful of authority figures than the US. But one of the reasons why our incarceration rate is higher is because our rates of hard crime are higher. The murder rate in the US is three times that of the EU; our burglary rate is four times as high. We have seven times the burglary rate of China. When it comes to capital punishment, however, we rank the same. The other problem when trying to compare international statistics on anything whether it's crime, education, or economic indicators is that the US is far more transparent than virtually all other societies. In our legal system, for example, if you are arrested, it becomes part of the public record. People do not just disappear the way they do in places like China and Russia. 

 

My understanding is that with our immigration service  ‘ICE’, being arrested and held incommunicado for some length of time is actually allowed.  That puts a deep chill on things.  If we nab people overstaying visas like the recent student directives and not staying here in to attend class in person a certain % of time, we invite reciprocation.  That is akin to the infamous and obnoxious preventative detention used by police states.  Non us citizens and green card holders are exempt.  Students overstaying allowed time and not understanding what is going on and with weak command of English, let alone comprehension of laws, could be in a bad way.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, elitts said:

I can't think this is really an isolated issue though, since pretty much EVERY generation in every country throughout history has thought their younger generations were full of silly liberal nonsense.

This is factually untrue.  

I've said it before.  History has not been a timeline moving steadily from conservative to liberal.  It is more like a pendulum, moving back and forth.  

[Troop75Eagle]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/ice-launching-citizens-academy-course-how-agency-arrests-immigrants-1516656%3famp=1
 

seems we have the offer of Posse training available.

[thrifty]

1 hour ago, Troop75Eagle said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/ice-launching-citizens-academy-course-how-agency-arrests-immigrants-1516656%3famp=1
 

seems we have the offer of Posse training available.

I don't know anything about ICE but this just sounds like media spin.  FBI.gov FBI Citizens Academy  says "Our Citizens Academy programs are engaging six-to-eight-week programs that give business, religious, civic, and community leaders an inside look at the FBI. Classes meet in the evenings at FBI field offices around the country. The mission of the FBI Citizens Academies is to foster a greater understanding of the role of federal law enforcement in the community through frank discussion and education. Candidates are nominated by FBI employees, former Citizens Academy graduates, and community leaders. Participants are selected by the special agent in charge of the local FBI field office. To find out more about an FBI Citizens Academy in your area, contact your local field office"

edit: I'd like to add that with regards to the FBI, it's not a new program created because of the current unrest.  I can only assume that many civic leaders have had the opportunity to attend the program if they chose to.

Edited July 9, 2020 by thrifty
update

[yknot]

2 hours ago, Troop75Eagle said:

My understanding is that with our immigration service  ‘ICE’, being arrested and held incommunicado for some length of time is actually allowed.  That puts a deep chill on things.  If we nab people overstaying visas like the recent student directives and not staying here in to attend class in person a certain % of time, we invite reciprocation.  That is akin to the infamous and obnoxious preventative detention used by police states.  Non us citizens and green card holders are exempt.  Students overstaying allowed time and not understanding what is going on and with weak command of English, let alone comprehension of laws, could be in a bad way.

According to the laws, ICE detainees may contact pro bono legal advisors, consulates, and certain nongovernmental agencies free of charge. Fees often apply for calls to family, which is where some of the problems occur if detainees don't have access to cash. Each detainee is also assigned a case officer. Detainees don't disappear but they can be left twisting in a dysfunctional and overloaded system. Situations like Guantanamo Bay however are completely different. People have been held there incommunicado which is why there was such pressure to close it. 

[Troop75Eagle]

19 hours ago, thrifty said:

I don't know anything about ICE but this just sounds like media spin.  FBI.gov FBI Citizens Academy  says "Our Citizens Academy programs are engaging six-to-eight-week programs that give business, religious, civic, and community leaders an inside look at the FBI. Classes meet in the evenings at FBI field offices around the country. The mission of the FBI Citizens Academies is to foster a greater understanding of the role of federal law enforcement in the community through frank discussion and education. Candidates are nominated by FBI employees, former Citizens Academy graduates, and community leaders. Participants are selected by the special agent in charge of the local FBI field office. To find out more about an FBI Citizens Academy in your area, contact your local field office"

edit: I'd like to add that with regards to the FBI, it's not a new program created because of the current unrest.  I can only assume that many civic leaders have had the opportunity to attend the program if they chose to.

I am no so sure, govt has a website on it:

 

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ice-hsi-tampa-graduates-latest-citizens-academy

 

I do think the citizen academies are an excellent idea, but how much oversight and stern warnings are given is pretty important.  I didn’t know about FBI but I’d love that.  Civilian involvement itself is a good type of oversight.  Walled off, police agencies can take on the unsettling character of secret police.  Conversely, subtly incorporating the citizens to do some of the ground work that evades the scrutiny the agencies are under can be a dangerous thing too.  All in all, I think civilian involvement is a good opportunity for patriotism and a watchdog on govt.  seems like many civilians are really good citizens and not ideologues, but the danger is there.