Sacred Cows

[elitts]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

My question is how will the BSA generate enough cash to pay without selling off some or all HA bases? 

Settlements in the Catholic Church for sex abuse range from $300K per plaintiff to >$1M per.  Given est. 4,000 plaintiffs that would be at least $1.2B … before any other costs (resolving other debts, etc.).  Where is the BSA going to get at least $1.2B?  Expect the lawyers to push for far more.  I would be extremely sad but I don't see many paths that avoid selling off High Adventure bases (all of them).

Perhaps they do sell Philmont to an independent trust as mentioned above who provides full market value to the victims fund.  Then that trust charges trek fees to help pay down the debt generated + costs + improvements.  Similar questions for other HA bases.

I would hope this situation will be somewhat different.  The behavior of many church leaders was nearly the opposite of the BSA in attempting to actively cover things up and hide them with little to no effort made to actually provide protections against abuse.  For as long as the BSA was trying to stay on the good side of press, it made more sense to settle cases on rather generous terms.  But at this point, people are coming out of the woodwork with suits that are in many cases going to be entirely impossible to verify given the time lapse.  I'd want to see the BSA's lawyers approach things a little bit differently.  Plus, coming out now and saying "This happened to me in 1972.  I never told anyone or reported it, but give me money." simply can't be treated the same as a current and verifiable claim.

If nothing else, people with damages that occurred 40 years ago should be made whole based upon 40 years ago dollars, not current ones.  So if they'd have been awarded $25,000 in 1970, that's what the basis of their award should be today. 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, elitts said:

If nothing else, people with damages that occurred 40 years ago should be made whole based upon 40 years ago dollars, not current ones.  So if they'd have been awarded $25,000 in 1970, that's what the basis of their award should be today. 

I think they would be very happy to be paid in 1970 dollars.  We were on the gold standard in 1970.  $35 per ounce.  Pay them in gold double-eagles.

[Eagledad]

I saw another anti-tobacco commercial last night. The anti tobacco lobby in the 70's and 80's made a lot of lawyers very rich by getting huge awards from the tobacco companies. As a result of that effort, smoking today in the USA is deemed so unacceptable (evil?), smokers are viewed as a lower class or damaged in character. So, why is there still so much anti-tobacco marketing? 

Barry

[CynicalScouter]

DELETED

Edited June 3, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[Eagledad]

20 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Part of the Master Tobacco Settlement agreement was that the tobacco companies themselves had to pay into a permanent anti-tobacco marketing fund.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_Initiative

You are missing the point. There is no silver bullet for the BSA.

Barry

[CynicalScouter]

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

You are missing the point. There is no silver bullet for the BSA.

Barry

Sorry, I was answering your direct question "So, why is there still so much anti-tobacco marketing?"

I will delete the post.

[Eagledad]

21 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Sorry, I was answering your direct question "So, why is there still so much anti-tobacco marketing?"

I will delete the post.

No need to delete. The references could be useful in the future.

Barry

[MattR]

55 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

You are missing the point. There is no silver bullet for the BSA.

Barry

Oh, now I understand. I guess I also read that differently than what you had intended. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Eagledad]

27 minutes ago, MattR said:

Oh, now I understand. I guess I also read that differently than what you had intended. Thanks for clarifying that.

Sorry. Wife also calls me on my expectation of reading my mind.

[AltadenaCraig]

On 5/26/2020 at 3:15 PM, desertrat77 said:

2.  Dignified burial with honors:

- OA (45 years an Arrowman too, ouch)

Don't fetch your mourning armband just yet, @desertrat77, at least not for OA.

Every other youth program I've been associated with - Little League & AYSO - each had an All Star component.  Some All Star program will naturally accompany Scouting, in whatever form survives, to meet the needs of those who just can't get enough as well as serve as a beacon for others.  We need an All Star program, and for better or worse OA is ours.

I do believe there are Sacred Cows within the OA.  Any traditions that smack of "Cultural Appropriation" (dancing, regalia, etc.) even now are being hustled out the back door so fast they won't even get the dignified burial.  That doesn't mean all of OA has to be sacrificed, however.  The honor a scout finds in performing cheerful service to others is worth preserving.

If not direct Native American heritage, what else could serve as an alternative OA touchstone?  Returning to the All Star concept, combining its mission of Camping promotion with "minimalist" theme of leave-no-trace and what do you have?  Highly mobile backpackers devoted to Ultralight principles.  There's enough skills and equipment adjustments in Ultrilight to more than make up for the loss of beadwork, leggings, & chokers.  And its traditions still harken indirectly to Native American roots.

Retain cheerful service, break out the Ultralight handbook, and cancel the wake for the OA.

[DuctTape]

7 hours ago, AltadenaCraig said:

Don't fetch your mourning armband just yet, @desertrat77, at least not for OA.

Every other youth program I've been associated with - Little League & AYSO - each had an All Star component.  Some All Star program will naturally accompany Scouting, in whatever form survives, to meet the needs of those who just can't get enough as well as serve as a beacon for others.  We need an All Star program, and for better or worse OA is ours.

I do believe there are Sacred Cows within the OA.  Any traditions that smack of "Cultural Appropriation" (dancing, regalia, etc.) even now are being hustled out the back door so fast they won't even get the dignified burial.  That doesn't mean all of OA has to be sacrificed, however.  The honor a scout finds in performing cheerful service to others is worth preserving.

If not direct Native American heritage, what else could serve as an alternative OA touchstone?  Returning to the All Star concept, combining its mission of Camping promotion with "minimalist" theme of leave-no-trace and what do you have?  Highly mobile backpackers devoted to Ultralight principles.  There's enough skills and equipment adjustments in Ultrilight to more than make up for the loss of beadwork, leggings, & chokers.  And its traditions still harken indirectly to Native American roots.

Retain cheerful service, break out the Ultralight handbook, and cancel the wake for the OA.

or maybe something like traditional woodcraft type outdoorsmen ala Sears, Kreps, Hastings, Kephart. 

Since Kephart is likely the most well known, call it "The Kephart Society." Keeping the OA as its roots, the acronym could be O.A.K.S.

If OA is rebranded, perhaps return membership to a place of honor; reserved only for the "all -stars".

Edited June 13, 2020 by DuctTape

[RememberSchiff]

If Ultralight or Kephart could return to scout-run and thrifty...maybe All Stars can backpack without adults or replace their Eagle project with a solo wilderness experience or ...

[DuctTape]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

If Ultralight or Kephart could return to scout-run and thrifty...maybe All Stars can backpack without adults or replace their Eagle project with a solo wilderness experience or ...

Perhaps there could be stages of experiences and adventures in which one could demonstrate advanced competency while also providing stewardship based service. They could take different tracks as well. hmmm....

[Chisos]

10 hours ago, AltadenaCraig said:

Don't fetch your mourning armband just yet, @desertrat77, at least not for OA.

Every other youth program I've been associated with - Little League & AYSO - each had an All Star component.  Some All Star program will naturally accompany Scouting, in whatever form survives, to meet the needs of those who just can't get enough as well as serve as a beacon for others.  We need an All Star program, and for better or worse OA is ours.

I do believe there are Sacred Cows within the OA.  Any traditions that smack of "Cultural Appropriation" (dancing, regalia, etc.) even now are being hustled out the back door so fast they won't even get the dignified burial.  That doesn't mean all of OA has to be sacrificed, however.  The honor a scout finds in performing cheerful service to others is worth preserving.

If not direct Native American heritage, what else could serve as an alternative OA touchstone?  Returning to the All Star concept, combining its mission of Camping promotion with "minimalist" theme of leave-no-trace and what do you have?  Highly mobile backpackers devoted to Ultralight principles.  There's enough skills and equipment adjustments in Ultrilight to more than make up for the loss of beadwork, leggings, & chokers.  And its traditions still harken indirectly to Native American roots.

Retain cheerful service, break out the Ultralight handbook, and cancel the wake for the OA.

I could see something like that.  Aside from the cultural appropriation issue, I just don't see Native American theme resonating with youth today like it did 30, 40, 50 years ago.

The bigger issue is making it back to a real "All-Stars" Honor Society again...starting with changing the election process away from the current "vote for everyone if you want to" that has made getting in the OA just another checkoff box after 1st Class and 15 camping nights.

[Oldscout448]

Ultra light backpacking?  

I'd rather you just bury it with dad flute music and muffled drums.