Major Changes Announced -- Councils Impacted

[Eagle94-A1]

25 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

If Scouting becomes a purely camping club, particularly a family camping club, I have no need to participate. Even if I have kids, I could do cheaper, more robust, less restrictive outdoor activities with them than I can with the Scouts. No juggling other peoples calendars, no sending money to Irving.

 

If we become Family Scouts, I am gone, and i believe a large number of traditionalists with the knowledge, skills, and abilities to keep the program alive will as well. It will no longer the progran we signed up for.

 

Worse I think youth will lose interest fast. I was in a "family friendly " troop. The youth had been complaining about the interference for some time. When my family had enough and left, that was the wakeup call for them. That wasvwhen the COR said no more. And a lot of youth who were on the verge of leaving decided to stay.

[HashTagScouts]

42 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Agreed. Lets rip the bandaid off. We need to put these cases behind us for good, and protect the CO's from potential liability. I hope my council participates in the settlement. Ideally try to keep local camp properties if the council can afford them. I'd be sad to see us lose the HA bases, but they aren't the meat and potatoes like summer camp is. 

I share @MattRs concern. The program has always been about character building and citizenship development. Camping and outdoor fun is important because it (along with the patrol method) is how we accomplish these bigger goals. 

If Scouting becomes a purely camping club, particularly a family camping club, I have no need to participate. Even if I have kids, I could do cheaper, more robust, less restrictive outdoor activities with them than I can with the Scouts. No juggling other peoples calendars, no sending money to Irving.

And you can bring your kids and their friends - with parental permission - without having to have another adult and trying to stick to adhere to guidelines that are arcane, insipid, or just downright foolish.

21 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

I just got off the Central Region business meeting (via Zoom).  There is nothing new to share.  The Region elected another slate of Regional and Area officers, but the Region President (volunteer) stated that this would be adjusted when a new structure is announced.  Most of the time was taken by awarding the Silver Antelopes and Silver Buffalos for our Region, but there were plenty of references to the information shared yesterday during the general session.  I encourage everyone to watch the National Council business meeting at 4-5 (eastern) on Friday.   

PLEASE share that link with me

[Thunderbird]

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

And why would girls leave venturing for troops? If the boys are leaving because of babysitting, what is the attraction for girls?

Because the girls want to earn Eagle.  All of the girls I know who are in troops are focused on earning Eagle, and most of them want to earn it ASAP.

[InquisitiveScouter]

11 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

Because the girls want to earn Eagle.  All of the girls I know who are in troops are focused on earning Eagle, and most of them want to earn it ASAP.

Thunderbird, I have it on good non-arrogant authority from Eagledad that "They are doing it wrong."  Would you be so kind as to relay?...lol

Edited May 21, 2020 by InquisitiveScouter

[Thunderbird]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

I share @MattRs concern. The program has always been about character building and citizenship development. Camping and outdoor fun is important because it (along with the patrol method) is how we accomplish these bigger goals. 

If Scouting becomes a purely camping club, particularly a family camping club, I have no need to participate. Even if I have kids, I could do cheaper, more robust, less restrictive outdoor activities with them than I can with the Scouts. No juggling other peoples calendars, no sending money to Irving.

Me, too.  We joined for the character building.  Camping and other activities keep the youth interested, but if it becomes just a camping club, then we can do that much cheaper and with no "red tape" on our own.

[mrjohns2]

I too don’t want Scouts to devolve into “Family Camping”. I am working on a “white paper” on what I view Family Scouting as; it is NOT family camping. I think National didn’t really describe it other than “now girls can join, so that means the whole family.” Read or ignore our approach to Family Scouting below.

--------------------------------------------------

I give full credit to our COR who has had the vision. I have been working on “documenting” it.

Chartered Org charters at least: Family Pack (boys and girls), Boy Troop, and Girl Troop. Need to try to have Lions den, as that opens the age span. To me, to us, this is Family Scouting. For Scouts Age 5-18, boy or girl, we have you covered and coordinated.

• Need a location that fits the entire org. We have a School with a full gym, full cafeteria, 7 classrooms, and a community room that we are able to use. This is hard, but key.
• Dens meet in those 7 classrooms. They meet in the gym for a pack meeting. The large boy troop meets in the cafeteria and our girl troop meets in the community room.
• Meetings start and end at the same time for all units. Ours are from 6:30-8pm every Tuesday.
• Single policy book – how are dues, fundraising, etc. are done need to be the same across all units.
• Coordinated schedule across all units with no collisions. Hike for cubs can’t be on the same time as a campout for the Scout units.
• For the Scout units, though, camp the same weekends. Other than “special events out of our control”, camp the same weekend each month. For us, it is the second weekend. Not necessarily the same places, but same weekends. That way families can say “lets go to grandma’s the 3^rd weekend, but we are free” instead of “man, we never have a free weekend, let’s drop something”.
• We depart for the campout at the same time, from the same place (School parking lot) so that a family drops both son and daughter off at the same place, same time
• We go to camp the same week, to the same camp, this year, in different camp sites due to growth
• We don’t share committees, but I assume sharing committees between the boy and girl unit would make this easier
• Even with this, we do not run a co-ed Troop setup. Our troops meet in separate rooms and only get together when it makes sense, which has been rare. We more often share a resource back and forth between the two (say, a cold weather experienced scout to speak with the other troop)
• This “solves” the Webelos to Scout transition. Same meeting, same time, same people in the building. Just move to a different room.
• We have a “Winter Camp” at one of our Scout camps that have these cool themed buildings. We rent all 3 and all 3 units attend. Not families (besides for Lions/Tigers and they are day only, I think)
• I am trying to get going an August “Family Campout”. I find this useful if people want siblings or parents that are leaders to go on a campout, we can say “great, we do that once a year in August”. The boy troop has had a hard time getting attendance at an August campout in the past, this allows it to be loose, families do their own food, and we do no programming. All other campouts are NOT family campouts. This is a Webelos / Troop activity that happens in January just before crossover. We have the AOLs work with their troop this weekend.
• We do a full COR conservation service project at a conservancy each year. This allows for projects for all age levels. It allows us to count as a Webelos / Scout activity.
• I should do a list of negatives, but it is hard to do Den Chiefs. It is hard for the SM of the boy troop to ever camp with his daughter's troop.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Thunderbird, I have it on good non-arrogant authority from Eagledad that "They are doing it wrong."  Would you be so kind as to relay?...lol

Hmm,

Actually my comments were more towards the older scouts attitude of babysitting, but I do also believe advancement or Eagle heavy programs also drive a lot of older scouts out. I found that most Eagle heavy type programs have an average older scout age of 14.

Now I can't say how girl troops fit with my observations of boys, there are a lot of unknown variables there including that girls are different than boys. But I can say that less than 5 percent of the scouts in my troop were specifically in it for the Eagle. And, if the Eagle was the primary motivation, they eventually left for another troop. 

That being said, we averaged one Eagle every 2.5 months. 

You might find it interesting that 3 out of 4 new Venturing Crews are started by Troop leaders who need a program to keep their older scouts. AND, 3 out of 5 of Venturing crews close up shop just after 3.5 years. The crews that last the longest typically have no affiliation with a troop. Crews affiliated with troops that are successful typically require the Venturing age scouts stay involved at the troop level. That included the Venturing girls even before girls were accepted into troops.

That Scouts stay in the programs mainly for the fun is really a myth. Scouts typically stay in their unit because of the way program they feel about themselves as a scout. Sure, the fun factor has a lot of drive in the beginning, but let's face it, after 30 camp outs, can number 31 really be the driver to come to next weeks meeting. The feeling of how they like themselves in the troop typically comes from the accomplishments of responsibility (character growth), not adventure or advancement. Responsibility in the troop typically includes some aspect of role modeling to other scouts.  Camping and advancement are just tools for building character, they are not the goals of the program.

Barry

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Eagledad

[skeptic]

Looking past the very murky comments by some here, I cannot comprehend the idea of removing Character Building from the program.  Of course, the lawyers and some of their litigants missed that boat a long time ago, or we would not be in this position now.  

Of course, in almost any other country that is part of the World Organization, this would not be able to be happening, as they have more rational legal systems that do not allow this kin of BS.  Lets face it, we live in a society that has far too many people that have learned to play the blame game, and a legal system that exacerbates it.  As someone already has stated, what about all the other far worse youth serving groups who have done far less to mitigate these issues?  

Sadder yet is that even after these slimeballs have managed to gut a program that is overall far more positive than many for youth development, the people that are never going to actually be held accountable, the actual perpetrators, are still going to be out there.  This disaster will do nothing to get rid of these people.

 

[Cburkhardt]

Family Camping.  Our traditional programs will continue to be our traditional programs.  Mom, Dad, little Ken and the dog will not attend Scouts BSA and Venturing campouts.  However, the camps that we end up retaining through bankruptcy will fully welcome family camping in the designated family camping areas.  And yes, we'll get family camping fees when these wonderful Scouting-supporters use our best facilities (because we will only keep the very best after the downsizing).  And yes, we'll finally get better utilization of our facilities as a result.  Some of our best camps, like Owasippe, have been doing this for 50 years.  If Mom and Dad happen to be there the same weekend (or week of summer camp) as their kids in the separate Boy and Girl Troops camping on the other side of the property, then great.  They can go pick them up at the end of the event instead of having to make two 3-hour round trips.  Folks, this is what the next generation of Scout parents want, and it was bourn out in the surveys that supported opening up to girls -- and it also is my direct experience with our Troop.   

[DuctTape]

32 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

If Mom and Dad happen to be there the same weekend (or week of summer camp) as their kids in the separate Boy and Girl Troops camping on the other side of the property, then great.  They can go pick them up at the end of the event instead of having to make two 3-hour round trips.  Folks, this is what the next generation of Scout parents want, and it was bourn out in the surveys that supported opening up to girls -- and it also is my direct experience with our Troop.   

This will require significant training of parents to not interfere by "stopping by to visit" or "bringing treats", etc... As it stands, parents are allowed to view all program, so nothing bars them from interference except training them to not interfere. But I suspect, that is truly what many parents want (b/c they do not understand the real purpose of Scouts) so to suggest program will not change is folly.

[RememberSchiff]

38 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

...Folks, this is what the next generation of Scout parents want, and it was bourn out in the surveys that supported opening up to girls --

Many here who never saw or participated in these "surveys" are eager to know more about them - who conducted,  how many participated , demographics, questions asked, results,...

 

[RememberSchiff]

23 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

... The organization will be rebranded after the bankruptcy is completed.

So, we walk away from our Congressional Charter?

[mrjohns2]

4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

So, we walk away from our Congressional Charter?

I have always assumed we could easily be “BSA” dba “What Ever Inc”. Businesses do it all the time. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by mrjohns2
Missed letter

[yknot]

 

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

So, we walk away from our Congressional Charter?

If any help was coming from Congress, it would have been here by now. I'm not sure what value anyone thinks that charter holds. I'd love to see Congress step in and buy scout camps en masse as a national initiative. In the summer they could serve as scout camps or dual community/scout camps; off season they could serve a host of other purposes that this recent crisis has identified. However, it won't happen. 

[Sentinel947]

42 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Family Camping.  Our traditional programs will continue to be our traditional programs.  Mom, Dad, little Ken and the dog will not attend Scouts BSA and Venturing campouts.  However, the camps that we end up retaining through bankruptcy will fully welcome family camping in the designated family camping areas.  And yes, we'll get family camping fees when these wonderful Scouting-supporters use our best facilities (because we will only keep the very best after the downsizing).  And yes, we'll finally get better utilization of our facilities as a result.  Some of our best camps, like Owasippe, have been doing this for 50 years.  If Mom and Dad happen to be there the same weekend (or week of summer camp) as their kids in the separate Boy and Girl Troops camping on the other side of the property, then great.  They can go pick them up at the end of the event instead of having to make two 3-hour round trips.  Folks, this is what the next generation of Scout parents want, and it was bourn out in the surveys that supported opening up to girls -- and it also is my direct experience with our Troop.   

When those of us here on the forums gripe about Family Scouting, we aren't talking about girls, or families renting a campsite at camp outside of summer camp. We're talking about the BSA encouraging families to attend monthly troop outings. Most of us have seen it in our units, or others. It's normally a mess of helicopter parenting and demotivated youth. It breaks down the patrol method, and stifles team development and learning of self sufficiency. Nothing wrong with a parent coming along to volunteer or observe. 

I imagine the idea of having families camp at the summer camp while the program is going on is a total non-starter for most of us here. Scouts carpool to and from summer camp, so most of the families in my troop don't take their scouts to or from summer camp. This is a solution in search of a problem. 

As for the survey, maybe you got one, but almost nobody else on this forum did. Many of us have been longtime volunteers, involved in units, Districts and Councils for quite a long time. Many (although not me) have their kids in the program too. The data collection methods weren't really published, so it's impossible for us to know how valid the survey was, other than assurances from BSA national, and they haven't always conducted themselves with integrity or transparency.