Major Changes Announced -- Councils Impacted

[vtcchokie92]

Thanks, @MattR.  One of my fellow Scouters in the Troop pointed me to this forum site, especially after the National Meeting information started coming out.  Short term concerns of our summer camp still on or not pale in comparison to what we could face in a couple of years.

[RememberSchiff]

14 minutes ago, vtcchokie92 said:

Maybe I missed it in this thread, but have the fees for 2021 been set yet?  Rumors show that we will have additional increases in 2021 from what we had this past year.

Covered in another topic

 

[vtcchokie92]

@RememberSchiff - thank you!

[Mrjeff]

Sorry, but building character and leadership is not, and has never been the sole purpose of Scouting.  It is just another bu#% s%&t idea that somebody came up with and a lot of people bought it. Scouting is and was and always has been a way for boys, yes boys, to get together and have fun.  There is a system of goal setting, accomplishment, and recognition, but it's all about having fun.  Lessons will be learned,  character will be developed, but that is not the focus. If Scouting is presented as it is ment to be presented without the consistent intrusion of adults who assume they know all there is about youth development, the youth will develop.  Somebody, somewhere sold the Boy Scouts a bill of goods that turned out to be stinking fish. Scouting is fun adventure that in itself teaches leadership and develops character.  Having a program for teaching leadership and developing character is just basakward.  Oh, but the Scouting program also includes the Scout Oath and Law and both of them have been flushed down the toilet.   This is reality and trying to do it backwards just does not work and the proof is in the pudding.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

Sorry, but building character and leadership is not, and has never been the sole purpose of Scouting.  It is just another bu#% s%&t idea that somebody came up with and a lot of people bought it. Scouting is and was and always has been a way for boys, yes boys, to get together and have fun.  There is a system of goal setting, accomplishment, and recognition, but it's all about having fun.  Lessons will be learned,  character will be developed, but that is not the focus. If Scouting is presented as it is ment to be presented without the consistent intrusion of adults who assume they know all there is about youth development, the youth will develop.  Somebody, somewhere sold the Boy Scouts a bill of goods that turned out to be stinking fish. Scouting is fun adventure that in itself teaches leadership and develops character.  Having a program for teaching leadership and developing character is just basakward.  Oh, but the Scouting program also includes the Scout Oath and Law and both of them have been flushed down the toilet.   This is reality and trying to do it backwards just does not work and the proof is in the pudding.

Your thoughts are dead on right ... though I don't express it the same way.

My youngest son recently said he loves the camping and activities, but he wishes he could do it more outside of scouting as he doesn't like the scouting aspect.  He comes from a scouting experience of way too many adults inserting themselves way way too much.  And it's adults that often just don't have the skill to teach what they are preaching.  And, adults that trip and fall over each other.  

It just drives kids away.   

Memory ... I experienced more than one summer camp where the troop leaderships were proud of how many adults attended.  12 to 15 adults for a troop of approx 20 to 25 scouts.  Adults was assigned roles and jobs to make sure camp went smooth.  Perhaps I was off base, but I considered this bad.  For a 20 to 25 scout summer camp, the perfect number of adults is 2 to 4.  Three was bad.  Two is good for cribbage.  Four is good for hearts.  Three allows one adult to nap while playing cribbage.  

Edited June 1, 2020 by fred8033

[Eagledad]

Sorry, I disagree. Scouting started as an adult program to develop growth in youth through the method of outdoors. The Vision and Mission support the goal. You may not like it because you want to be just for kids, but that is the reality.

Barry

[Mrjeff]

Barry, Perhaps you should research the history of the Scouting movement to include it's origins in the United Kingdom.  I think you will find that it was started by a few adults in support of young men.  You may also consider reading "Two Lives of a Hero" and you may discover some info about the origins of Scouting.

[fred8033]

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Sorry, I disagree. Scouting started as an adult program to develop growth in youth through the method of outdoors. The Vision and Mission support the goal. You may not like it because you want to be just for kids, but that is the reality.

Barry

Perhaps we are circling the same issue.  Which came first?  Chicken or the egg?  "THROUGH THE METHOD OF OUTDOORS".   This is where scouting shines.  ... and it supports as a by-product character / leadership.  It's just that I really don't scouting adult leaders do a good job of "explicitly" teaching leadership.  BUT, on average they quickly learn to teach out to setup a tent, tie knots, cook in the rain, etc.  

Scouting shines when we focus first on outdoor adventures.  Scouts crashes and burns when we focus first on telling adults to teach leadership and character.  

[David CO]

16 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Perhaps we are circling the same issue.  Which came first?  Chicken or the egg? 

A scout unit is owned by adults, but operated for the benefit of kids.  The adult owners of a unit are not supposed to seek a benefit for themselves.  Likewise, the kids should strive to benefit from the scouting program, but not assert ownership over it.

As for the character question, I believe character is modelled, not taught.  No program or curriculum, no matter how well planned and developed, can develop good character in youth.  It is only through adult association, with adults of good character, that youth develop good character in themselves.

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by David CO

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Scouting is and was and always has been a way for boys, yes boys, to get together and have fun.  There is a system of goal setting, accomplishment, and recognition, but it's all about having fun.

I don't know if that is fully true.  "Scouting is a game with a purpose." So, you have the first part, it is a game, but isn't all about having fun. If was all about having fun, there would be many things done very differently. 

[Mrjeff]

Yes, it looks like that we are on the same track.  Present scouting as it should be presented and the character building, leadership, and self reliance will be a byproduct.   Trying to teach, character, integrity,  honesty,  self reliance.........can't really be done.  But, provide an attractive path to those ends and that path will be followed.

[Eagledad]

19 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Barry, Perhaps you should research the history of the Scouting movement to include it's origins in the United Kingdom.  I think you will find that it was started by a few adults in support of young men.  You may also consider reading "Two Lives of a Hero" and you may discover some info about the origins of Scouting.

Yes, but it always was in the context of a SM, or role model. Boys were getting together and having fun long before Badon Powell started the program. The problem was the kind of fun they were having was not developing a better person. In fact, their fun was developing the wrong kind of character. BP started a program where the activities developed growth. The difference between the UK and the BSA was the BSA got more specific on the vision. But, not out of context with Badon Powell. BDs comments to Scoutmasters were always directed to giving scouts responsibility for making personal decisions that would develop growth in character and actions towards others. The reason, the only reason that Scouting exist today is because of the oath and law corner stone principles that hold the vision together. Without the Oath and Law, scouting would have fallen apart years ago because all games must have purpose if they are to survive the judge of time. Vision is an anchor that maintains success. The Oath and Law are the principles of the vision. 

If you want to discuss how scouting today has lost the soul of outdoors program, you will get lots of thumbs up. But to suggest the program isn't more than kids going camping, well I disagree. 

Barry

[Mrjeff]

I find it interesting that people quote BP like they quote the Bible.  Bits and pieces are pulled out in order to fit the situation.  If we choose to follow the advice of BP and quote it as an absolute, shouldn't we quote all of it?

[Mrjeff]

I think you should just reexamine and contemplate my post so you have a better understanding of my comments. 

[mrjohns2]

28 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Yes, it looks like that we are on the same track.  Present scouting as it should be presented and the character building, leadership, and self reliance will be a byproduct.   Trying to teach, character, integrity,  honesty,  self reliance.........can't really be done.  But, provide an attractive path to those ends and that path will be followed.

I agree 100%.