Two Deep Leadership on a video chat because Why?

[carebear3895]

24 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

If the purpose is for youth protection barriers to abuse as stated, then a mbc fits the criteria if unit leadership says "ok" regardless of paperwork. If not, then it really isnt about barriers to abuse.

Merit Badge Counselors must take YPT and have a background check completed. For youth protections sake, they fit the bill. 

[Eagle94-A1]

The GTSS has this to say.

 

Adult Supervision

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and program-appropriate supervision must always be provided. (Youth Protection and Barriers to Abuse FAQs)

All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive.

 

No where in that passage does it state "registered adult unit leaders, " only "registered adult leaders."

[awanatech]

9 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The policy as written is poorly worded and unclear, specifically about what positions qualify as "registered adult leaders."

You will not find this clarified anywhere in "official" publications.

I recommend, until BSA amends the wording, you follow what you see as the plain language common sense interpretation.  If that means you see MBC's as "registered adult leaders", then go with it.

This council does not intepret it this way.  In this council, MBC's are not "registered adult leaders."  And I have it directly from National Director of YP that councils may apply stricter standards than National intends when it comes to Youth Protection.

It is a long sordid story, as Eagle94-A1 can attest, so I answered it privately because it is these kinds of questions that have gotten me blacklisted from district and council positions in our council.  (Still proudly serving at the unit level.)

IMO, this has nothing to do with YP, and everything to do with generating revenue for National.

Many units figured out that, since membership costs are unreasonable, they can cut their re-charter costs (by a third or half??) by registering the minimum number of adults to satisfy charter requirements, and having all remaining adults register as MBC's (which is a no fee district position.)  Since this tactic does not change your YP stance or background clearance requirements, you should forge ahead and change only if your council calls you on it. 

I also recommend that you do not ask for an official answer.  What you get back will only restrict you further, cost you more, and gain you nothing in actual YP. 

But, if you wish to go down that road, please email your SE.  If you don't like the answer they give, then stick your neck out and email Youth.Protection@scouting.org

Be advised, National will trace you and email you back with a cc to your SE with any response. 

I have no desire to go questioning at Council level, and especially not at National level.  I got to the point a long time ago where I don't go seeking more clarification when it's clear that nothing good will come out of it.  At least not through official channels.  I had never heard that about MBC not being considered a "registered adult leader", since they fill out an adult application, it is submitted to Council and they are approved (registered) or not. Along with that is the YPT and MBC training.  Sounds like they satisfy all the requirements of the term "registered adult leader".  But I've been around enough to know that many Councils will have different interpretations and policies.  It's just amazing sometimes how hard we try to make it within BSA to get & keep good, willing, qualified adult volunteers (who get to pay for the privilege of serving).

[HashTagScouts]

56 minutes ago, awanatech said:

I have no desire to go questioning at Council level, and especially not at National level.  I got to the point a long time ago where I don't go seeking more clarification when it's clear that nothing good will come out of it.  At least not through official channels.  I had never heard that about MBC not being considered a "registered adult leader", since they fill out an adult application, it is submitted to Council and they are approved (registered) or not. Along with that is the YPT and MBC training.  Sounds like they satisfy all the requirements of the term "registered adult leader".  But I've been around enough to know that many Councils will have different interpretations and policies.  It's just amazing sometimes how hard we try to make it within BSA to get & keep good, willing, qualified adult volunteers (who get to pay for the privilege of serving).

MBCs don't pay.  This is why there is a difference between "registered adult" and "registered adult leader".  MBCs are not required to take any training beyond YPT and MBC training.  They are not satisfactorily a leader, as they don't actually lead- they consult on Merit Badges.  For the purpose of a virtual meeting- OK, no problem, adults are not expected to be leading troop meetings, the SPL is.  What troop org chart have you ever seen that has MBCs on them, and what reporting lines they have? 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

They are not satisfactorily a leader, as they don't actually lead

But National and councils recognize Unit Scouter Reserves, who do pay, as leaders for the two-deep requirement.  Yet, they have no training other than YPT.

Hence my sarcasm with policies as stated and implemented.

[Jameson76]

On 4/25/2020 at 4:13 PM, carebear3895 said:

Our job, first and foremost, is to make sure youth are protected. 

I have voiced some concern over the way this has apparently become our mission.  The BSA is around to protect youth.  In many conversations that seems to be (in some Scouters opinion) the REASON we have Scouting and not part of what we do as Scouters.

We are here to protect youth, that is the goal.  Certainly important but not the end all be all.  We are an organization whose mission is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.  Part of working towards that mission is YPT, as are many other parts of the Scouting program.  All of these tenants are important.

Just saying that we need to remember WHY we as Scouters really are involved.  No family or Scout/Youth is going to join an organization who has as their main stated mission that they protect youth.  In no way am I underscoring the importance of YPT.  We just cannot (IMHO) let this DEFINE the BSA, this needs to be PART of what we do.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Jameson76

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

We just cannot (IMHO) let this DEFINE the BSA, this needs to be PART of what we do.

Exactly...if it was first and foremost, then the reductio ad absurdum is to eliminate the Scouting program.  All risk gone!

[desertrat77]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Exactly...if it was first and foremost, then the reductio ad absurdum is to eliminate the Scouting program.  All risk gone!

@InquisitiveScouter, we aren't too far from that now...the Zoom meetings and backyard camping trips aren't going away after the current virus subsides.  This will become the new culture of the BSA. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by desertrat77

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

@InquisitiveScouter, we aren't too far from that now...the Zoom meetings and backyard camping trips aren't going away after the current virus subsides.  This will become the new culture of the BSA. 

Lone Scouting for everyone!  Parents sign off requirements; MBCs are contacted through Scoutbook; interaction with the Scouting community is virtual; no need for a council!  Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!!  Oh, National still gets your registration fee

[desertrat77]

24 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Lone Scouting for everyone!  Parents sign off requirements; MBCs are contacted through Scoutbook; interaction with the Scouting community is virtual; no need for a council!  Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!!  Oh, National still gets your registration fee

National gets the registration fee, and yet reduces their liability/risk substantially. 

[Sentinel947]

2 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

@InquisitiveScouter, we aren't too far from that now...the Zoom meetings and backyard camping trips aren't going away after the current virus subsides.  This will become the new culture of the BSA. 

Oh come on now... Scouting has been through wars, threat of nuclear annihilation, and polio scares. At some point, when social distancing is relaxed and public gatherings are allowed, Scouts will get back with their troops and camp. And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available. 

[desertrat77]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

Oh come on now... Scouting has been through wars, threat of nuclear annihilation, and polio scares. At some point, when social distancing is relaxed and public gatherings are allowed, Scouts will get back with their troops and camp. And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available. 

True, but the mindset seems different now.  The old school scouters that led the BSA through the wars and other crises you noted are long gone and many at the helm today have no interest in outdoor adventure.  Scouting at the troop level has become more and more like cub scouting. The BSA has consistently tried to reduce risk to the point of watering down programming and adventure. 

I don't envision a mass movement of parents and scouters saying "alright, scouts, let's hit the trail!" (Unless its a council property.)  Some units will definitely get back in outdoors but I suspect many more will find the Zoom/backyard/virtual scouting life pretty darn convenient.  I agree with you, the BSA won't keep or mandate virtual scouting but I don't think they'll go out of the way to discourage it either.

Added PS:  I hope I'm 100 percent wrong.

Edited April 30, 2020 by desertrat77

[Eagle94-A1]

18 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

@InquisitiveScouter, we aren't too far from that now...the Zoom meetings and backyard camping trips aren't going away after the current virus subsides.  This will become the new culture of the BSA. 

 

15 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Oh come on now... Scouting has been through wars, threat of nuclear annihilation, and polio scares. At some point, when social distancing is relaxed and public gatherings are allowed, Scouts will get back with their troops and camp. And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available. 

Once Pandora's box is open, you can't close it. And too many times in the past when the people complain, National changes it's policies. Don't believe me? Look at Eagle Palms. 94%  of those polled were against changing the requirements, yet they changed them anyway. Look at the 2015 Cub Scout Program. People complained, and guess what, in December 2016, WITHOUT ANY ADVANCE NOTICE, NOR TELLING THE FOLKS WHO WORKED ON THAT PROGRAM COMMITTEE FOR 4-6 YEARS, (emphasis) they changed it. Look at OA eligibility, election procedures, and Brotherhood changes over the years. what once was a great honor society that inspired people is now viewed as just another club, and nothing special about it. Look at the YP changes they made regarding patrol day activities and 18-20 near old ASMs . THANKFULLY they delayed implementation until October 1, 2018 instead of the immediate February 2018 as originally posted. But that had more to do with councils and HA bases getting complaints about groups having to cancel since they were using 18-20 year olds as their 2nd adult. And I can go on and on.

So Yes, backyard camping is probably here to stay. Parents will pressure units and national to allow ti since it  is allowed for this emergency.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Eagle94-A1

[desertrat77]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So Yes, backyard camping is probably here to stay. Parents will pressure units and national to allow ti since it  is allowed for this emergency.

Having reflected a bit since yesterday, and thinking over your comments, I am beginning to think National will be receptive to the parental pressure.  This is a quote from Roger Mosby's 27 April 2020 video (link below):

"Since mid-March, Cub Scouts have worked on or completed more than 115,000 Adventures, and Scouts have worked on or completed nearly 73,000 merit badges – all from the safety of their home."

It's about a) numbers and b) safety. 

https://scoutingwire.org/a-scout-is-helpful-especially-in-times-like-the-present/

Edited April 30, 2020 by desertrat77

[desertrat77]

19 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available. 

The more I mull it over, the more I'm convinced you are spot on.  Even with the aforementioned spike in earned badges, and the rejoicing, it will be short term.  Scouts and Scouters will get bored and walk away.  The target audience for virtual scouting is probably quite small and recruiting will be a tough sell.

Edited April 30, 2020 by desertrat77