Two Deep Leadership on a video chat because Why?

[Treflienne]

14 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

no more parents as a second adult

You can still do a parent as the second adult -- you just need to prepare in advance by proactively registering them as "reserve scouter" (which entails having them do YPT and background check).   Once they've done this,  next step is to get them to sign up as a merit badge counselor for some area in which they have skills and interest -- promising them that you will never require them to teach a merit badge class, you are merely hoping that they will be available when an eager and enthusiatic scout comes along wanting to learn about their field.

[Eagle94-A1]

12 hours ago, Treflienne said:

You can still do a parent as the second adult -- you just need to prepare in advance by proactively registering them as "reserve scouter" (which entails having them do YPT and background check).   Once they've done this,  next step is to get them to sign up as a merit badge counselor for some area in which they have skills and interest -- promising them that you will never require them to teach a merit badge class, you are merely hoping that they will be available when an eager and enthusiatic scout comes along wanting to learn about their field.

"Reserve Scouter" is still a registered Position of Responsibility (POR). So yes, Reserve Scouters do count as a 2nd adult, if they are over 21. Also Merit Badge Counselors are registered PORs as well. So they too count as a 2nd registered Scouter, unless they are 18-20.

But a parent, who has not registered in any capacity with the BSA, does not count as a second adult.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, Eagle94-A1 said:

Also Merit Badge Counselors are registered PORs as well.

You will need to check this with your council.  Some councils (and national) do not regard Merit Badge Counselors as "registered leaders" for the purposes of any events other than Merit Badge sessions.

This might be another one of those situations where you don't really want to know the answer to the question, though 😬

[Eagle94-A1]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You will need to check this with your council.  Some councils (and national) do not regard Merit Badge Counselors as "registered leaders" for the purposes of any events other than Merit Badge sessions.

This might be another one of those situations where you don't really want to know the answer to the question, though 😬

We have several Scouters in our district who registered as MBCs and they are active. I have looked into this, and have not found and literature stating that MBCs do not count. If you have it, I would appreciate a copy of it.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We have several Scouters in our district who registered as MBCs and they are active. I have looked into this, and have not found and literature stating that MBCs do not count. If you have it, I would appreciate a copy of it.

Answered privately to protect the innocent 😎

[awanatech]

11 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Answered privately to protect the innocent 😎

I would also like to know where it states that MBCs do not count as registered leaders.  I have not seen that anywhere.  And isn't answering privately exactly the kind of thing we are trying to prevent with YPT and GTSS requiring 2 deep leadership, lol?

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, awanatech said:

I would also like to know where it states that MBCs do not count as registered leaders.  I have not seen that anywhere.  And isn't answering privately exactly the kind of thing we are trying to prevent with YPT and GTSS requiring 2 deep leadership, lol?

The policy as written is poorly worded and unclear, specifically about what positions qualify as "registered adult leaders."

You will not find this clarified anywhere in "official" publications.

I recommend, until BSA amends the wording, you follow what you see as the plain language common sense interpretation.  If that means you see MBC's as "registered adult leaders", then go with it.

This council does not intepret it this way.  In this council, MBC's are not "registered adult leaders."  And I have it directly from National Director of YP that councils may apply stricter standards than National intends when it comes to Youth Protection.

It is a long sordid story, as Eagle94-A1 can attest, so I answered it privately because it is these kinds of questions that have gotten me blacklisted from district and council positions in our council.  (Still proudly serving at the unit level.)

IMO, this has nothing to do with YP, and everything to do with generating revenue for National.

Many units figured out that, since membership costs are unreasonable, they can cut their re-charter costs (by a third or half??) by registering the minimum number of adults to satisfy charter requirements, and having all remaining adults register as MBC's (which is a no fee district position.)  Since this tactic does not change your YP stance or background clearance requirements, you should forge ahead and change only if your council calls you on it. 

I also recommend that you do not ask for an official answer.  What you get back will only restrict you further, cost you more, and gain you nothing in actual YP. 

But, if you wish to go down that road, please email your SE.  If you don't like the answer they give, then stick your neck out and email Youth.Protection@scouting.org

Be advised, National will trace you and email you back with a cc to your SE with any response. 

[RichardB]

Definition of Registered can be found in Scouting's Barriers to Abuse:  

Source:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

The chartered organization representative, or in their absence the executive officer of the chartered organization, must approve the registration of the unit’s adult leaders.

Registration includes:

• Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training
• Volunteer Screening Database check

As mentioned in the post above, a MBC isn't a unit position, and it's certainly not designed to replace the direct contact leadership needs of a unit (SM, ASM).   It is as described here:  https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/mb-counselor-guide/ 

Wouldn't common sense include that one should be properly registered and classified according to the roles that they plan to fulfill for youth?  

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, RichardB said:

Definition of Registered can be found in Scouting's Barriers to Abuse:  

Source:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

The chartered organization representative, or in their absence the executive officer of the chartered organization, must approve the registration of the unit’s adult leaders.

Registration includes:

• Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training
• Volunteer Screening Database check

As mentioned in the post above, a MBC isn't a unit position, and it's certainly not designed to replace the direct contact leadership needs of a unit (SM, ASM).   It is as described here:  https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/mb-counselor-guide/ 

Wouldn't common sense include that one should be properly registered and classified according to the roles that they plan to fulfill for youth?  

Richard,

An MBC is registered, and according to the same criteria...

• Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training
• Volunteer Screening Database check

The only substantial difference between a MBC and a Unit Scouter Reserve, is that the MBC requires MORE training!!

[DuctTape]

While a MBC may not be designed to replace the direct contact leadership needs, a MBC as a second trained adult certainly fulfills the needs of youth protection barriers to abuse. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

While a MBC may not be designed to replace the direct contact leadership needs, a MBC as a second trained adult certainly fulfills the needs of youth protection barriers to abuse. 

Only in certain merit badge situations, not something considered an outing.  And that opens a new discussion about what constitutes a merit badge session, versus an "outing"

Again, policies are often written with ambiguity to protect the BSA...not you, nor youth 

 

[HashTagScouts]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Only in certain merit badge situations, not something considered an outing.  And that opens a new discussion about what constitutes a merit badge session, versus an "outing"

Again, policies are often written with ambiguity to protect the BSA...not you, nor youth 

 

Agreed.  MBCs are required to go through background checks for obvious safety, and to take our YPT to be familiar with the Scouting program (bear in mind, it was not the intention of the early days of Scouting for MBCs to be the troop leaders, they were to be the people in the community that were subject-matter experts for Scouts to interact with).  BSA does make it confusing with flip-flopping on the use of term "adult leaders" and "registered adult", but, an MBC is not expected to be a "unit leader", and thus is not intended to be a supervisor within any other part of the Scouting program other than MBs.  It was pointedly said during our summer camp pre-meetings that National does not consider a registered MBC to satisfy the two-deep leadership for units attending camp.  Only SM/ASM/Committee members can fill those roles (any one of those dual registered as an MBC, obviously is a different matter).

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, HashTagScouts said:

It was pointedly said during our summer camp pre-meetings that National does not consider a registered MBC to satisfy the two-deep leadership for units attending camp.  Only SM/ASM/Committee members can fill those roles (any one of those dual registered as an MBC, obviously is a different matter).

MBCs may only fill the two-deep requirement during a merit badge session when the Scout's parent or another registered adult leader is present.  This would apply for on-line sessions or visits to a Scout's home, or a meeting in a public place like your local library or a restaurant.

If a council running a camp says the MBC cannot fill any two-deep requirement, then that council will be supported by National in implementing that policy.  An SE, as CEO of a separate legal entity [501c(3)], may implement policies more stringent than National publishes.

Wanna dive deeper into the can of worms?

[RichardB]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Richard,

An MBC is registered, and according to the same criteria...

• Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training
• Volunteer Screening Database check

The only substantial difference between a MBC and a Unit Scouter Reserve, is that the MBC requires MORE training!!

Nope, not the same criteria.  MBC is registered, but you left out unit leadership approval.   MBC isn't a unit position.  

[DuctTape]

8 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Nope, not the same criteria.  MBC is registered, but you left out unit leadership approval.   MBC isn't a unit position.  

If the purpose is for youth protection barriers to abuse as stated, then a mbc fits the criteria if unit leadership says "ok" regardless of paperwork. If not, then it really isnt about barriers to abuse.