Going Too Far: Online Outdoor Orientation

[jpb6583]

On 4/24/2020 at 10:15 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Does he have any experience on the unit level, whether as a Scout or volunteer? BALOO and ItOLS are just that "Orientation" and "Introduction" courses. Mastery of skills is not the goal like it use to be, but getting adults comfortable in the outdoors is the goal.  I have ran into adults who have taken these courses, and i would not trust my sons with them because even with taking these courses, they are not truly competent in the outdoors.

I have read his bio and it says nothing about being a unit leader. I do know that he was in our Council years ago as (I think) a Field Director, but then he moved east somewhere. That was before I became SM. I also know that our Exec. Board Pres. did NOT want him to fill the position he is in now...

[TAHAWK]

Over generations, some basic concepts were accepted:

 

Program quality - outdoors, excitement, challenge, Scout planned and led - drives membership.

Advancement is a result of quality program and, otherwise, a bad idea.

Advancement is not a goal of Scouting.

Program is to be experiential - Scouts learn and grow by doing.

Scouting is not to be anything like school.

 

I see little sign that National is committed to any of these points.

[carebear3895]

On 5/7/2020 at 11:44 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

When I was a DE in the Late 90s,  i needed to complete all the basic training for the programs prior to PDL1. Thankfully i was a trained ASM with a troop and AA with my post. All i needed was Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, which I took as a DE. When i got to PDL1, found out it was a formality that they would do outside of class the first nite.

Now i am told basic training is not required.

Correct. Being a trained Cubmaster is no longer a requirement.

ScoutingU needs a complete overhaul of ALL it's professional training.  

[carebear3895]

On 5/6/2020 at 9:57 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

So my question is was your SE not trained or was he just poorly trained?

"trained" is an interesting word for Professionals these days. 

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

"trained" is an interesting word for Professionals these days. 

As no one presently as National can explain what the Patrol Method is - a requirement for a new Scout seeking Scout Rank - "interesting" is  accurate comment.

Edited May 9, 2020 by TAHAWK
kant tipe well

[Eagle94-A1]

14 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

Correct. Being a trained Cubmaster is no longer a requirement.

ScoutingU needs a complete overhaul of ALL it's professional training.  

 

9 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

As no one presently as National can explain what the Patrol Method is - a requirement for a new Scout seeking Scout Rank - "interesting" is  accurate comment.

 

And that is a mistake IMHO. You need to have a basic understanding of the program in order to promote the program. Plus the more experience you have, the better able to help your struggling units  if you do not have enough/any commissioners. If you don't meet the minimum training requested of Volunteers, how can you help them?

Grant you I was not the normal DE. I already had 5 years as a ASM, and 2 years as a Chapter Adviser and Explorer Post Associate Adviser. While the Scouters had some reservations about me initially,  but when they saw me willing to get down and dirty with them at an Ordeal ( my old lodge's motto was a clean sash is the sign of a lazy Arrowman  ) that got their respect and trust.

And while I did have to go through Cub Scout Basic Leader Training (day long course covering ALL Cub Scout Leader positions), my experience working on staff at various Cub Scout programs, and the work the OA did with Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies made a big difference in gaining respect in that community.

 

This is what happens when a MOVEMENT turns into a BUSINESS. I think Scouting is about to get a lot smaller, and fees are about to skyrocket.

 

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

 

And that is a mistake IMHO. You need to have a basic understanding of the program in order to promote the program. Plus the more experience you have, the better able to help your struggling units  if you do not have enough/any commissioners. If you don't meet the minimum training requested of Volunteers, how can you help them?

Grant you I was not the normal DE. I already had 5 years as a ASM, and 2 years as a Chapter Adviser and Explorer Post Associate Adviser. While the Scouters had some reservations about me initially,  but when they saw me willing to get down and dirty with them at an Ordeal ( my old lodge's motto was a clean sash is the sign of a lazy Arrowman  ) that got their respect and trust.

And while I did have to go through Cub Scout Basic Leader Training (day long course covering ALL Cub Scout Leader positions), my experience working on staff at various Cub Scout programs, and the work the OA did with Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies made a big difference in gaining respect in that community.

 

This is what happens when a MOVEMENT turns into a BUSINESS. I think Scouting is about to get a lot smaller, and fees are about to skyrocket.

 

Hoffer's three stages of a cause:

1. Movement

2. Business

3. Racket

[carebear3895]

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

And that is a mistake IMHO. You need to have a basic understanding of the program in order to promote the program. Plus the more experience you have, the better able to help your struggling units  if you do not have enough/any commissioners. If you don't meet the minimum training requested of Volunteers, how can you help them?l

My points exactly. 5 days of sales training doesn't prepare you for the unique volunteer environment of the BSA. The absolute FIRST thing i did i got into my district was ask units if I could tag along on their next camping trip. To this date, in my whole career, that was probably the best thing I could've ever done. Plus, how can you "sell" Scouting if you don't "know" Scouting. And the gold loops bang their hands trying to figure out why our turnover is so high. 

 

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

( my old lodge's motto was a clean sash is the sign of a lazy Arrowman  ) 

would've loved your old lodge. Oh how the OA has strayed from its roots. National officers caring more about how clean their fancy pressed uniforms are than actually doing any real service.  (obviously, that is a conversation for another day)

[carebear3895]

15 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

As no one presently as National can explain what the Patrol Method is - a requirement for a new Scout seeking Scout Rank - "interesting" is  accurate comment.

Interestingly, Professionals have a knot award for training. That's what the Black knot on a white background with a black border is. (not to be confused with the quartermaster award, which has a white border). Commonly called the "Vader" knot by Professionals.  

It always concerns me when I see SE's who don't have one. Like "buddy, in your 15 year career, you're telling me that you never completed 5 training courses..." 

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

My points exactly. 5 days of sales training doesn't prepare you for the unique volunteer environment of the BSA. The absolute FIRST thing i did i got into my district was ask units if I could tag along on their next camping trip. To this date, in my whole career, that was probably the best thing I could've ever done. Plus, how can you "sell" Scouting if you don't "know" Scouting. And the gold loops bang their hands trying to figure out why our turnover is so high. 

Don't get me started on my time with national supply. Suffice to say, I worked with folks with no field experience. They banged their heads when merchandise woulkd not sell, despite me saying it's a bad idea.

3 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

would've loved your old lodge. Oh how the OA has strayed from its roots. National officers caring more about how clean their fancy pressed uniforms are than actually doing any real service.  (obviously, that is a conversation for another day)

OA is a very sore subject for me. It was the program that kept me involved in Scouting after earning Eagle.  I served as a youth office and CA in my home lodge, and served in various capacities in several other lodges. It fell from a proud, hard to get into Honor Camper Society, to anyone can get into it organization. My two older sons have both been elected into the OA,  the oldest was placed on the ballot by the chapter chief against his wishes. Neither one is interested because the OA no longer means anything as everyone seems to get elected nowadays. Being elected seems as if it is a formality.

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

This is what happens when a MOVEMENT turns into a BUSINESS.

 

5 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Hoffer's three stages of a cause:

1. Movement

2. Business

3. Racket

 

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Being elected seems as if it is a formality.

Concur...

[InquisitiveScouter]

At functions, every once in a while, someone will ask me why I don't buy a new sash because mine is so old and dingy...

I just say "Thanks, but this one means a lot to me."

[Eagle94-A1]

19 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

At functions, every once in a while, someone will ask me why I don't buy a new sash because mine is so old and dingy...

I admit I am dense at times. My Brotherhood sash was "used and abused." Dirt stained and some of the embroidery was coming undone. At the fall fellowship, which is when we announce the Vigil candidates, all my buddies kept bugging me with "you need a new sash." I finally broke down to buy one only to be told I would have to wait until the next day so that they would have enough for that nite's Brotherhood Ceremony. Trading post would be open after Lodge Meeting. Long story short, I got pulled up for Vigil.  

Still got harrassed by my friends for not catching on.