Modified Requirements

[Sniktaw]

This is a joke, right?

 

[TMSM]

6 minutes ago, Sniktaw said:

This is a joke, right?

 

It's got to be. Is it possible those above don't know how scouting works? 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

21 minutes ago, TMSM said:

It's got to be. Is it possible those above don't know how scouting works? 

I don't know about now since over half the workforce has been furloughed, but if my Scout Shop represented national as a whole, then out of the 5 full timers, 1 had experience with the program or 20%

And those who should know how the program works have been away from the field for so long, they don't remember.

[Chisos]

That's silly.  And what's the point?  I'd assume the vast majority of scouts working on T-2-1 req's are less than 14 years old.  If they get delayed a couple of months, so what?

I guess there are some kids that joined at an older age and can't spare the time (to make Eagle before 18)...but the already-announced time extensions should take care of that.

[PACAN]

Why not do all the requirements virtually?  If you read the requirements they all could be done.   If they limited it to the "administrivia requirements" , there are ample things that could be done in a Zoom patrol meeting.  But do the BSA Swimmer test in your bathtub?  The camping says do these outdoors not virtually in your living room under a blanket attached to your couch....this is what a 4-5 year old does on a sleepover. 

[mashmaster]

Personally, I think these go too far.  Unless real hardship is shown, advancement can wait for thing that require actually doing.  I am fine for doing requirements virtually that make sense, but replacing talking about it vs. doing are not the same.  A family is not a patrol, a family campout is not the same as a troop campout.  They are doing a disservice to the kids by making everything virtual.

This is like passing the kids onto the next grade level because they got older vs. demonstrating skill, knowledge, or even being brave and doing it away from mom or dad.

 

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

 The concept of "they'll learn it later on, after the rank has been awarded" is going too far.  

It doesn't work.   Scouts will absolutely miss learning the details during the requirements.  Once missed, it's too late.  Also what do you do later?  Hold them back on something not related?  That's not fair.  Demand they participate in the coming 5 mile hike?  If they don't attend, you have no recourse.

My view is the requirements are a tool to drive the real benefit of scouting:  the fellowship, working together and solving issues while trying to do something real.  While the requirements are the requirements, they have never been the value statement of scouting.  The value is learning to work together in uncomfortable situations.

 

 

[Eagle1993]

We have no plans to use these alt requirements.  The only real exception we plan to use is for 1 scout who is 17 and turns 18 in July.  His Eagle Scout project is definitely impacted by Covid-19 so we plan to work with him on an extension if he needs it.  Otherwise, we don't see any need to change requirement

[qwazse]

One of our scouts had a virtual EBoR already, as will another couple of scouts (I think). One Life scout might need an extension (although we could get creative with social distancing and accomplish the project).

Otherwise, it's up to the scout to come to us with a reasonable plan B for T2FC or whatever rank. That plan needs to show skill mastery. This is nothing new. Life scouts can be really great instructors but can't remember what EDGE stands for. If a few kids can claim they know what they know because of that scout, I'm signing off on the requirement.

I think the tough call is positions of responsibility. Guiding boys to live up to their PoR's requires creativity.

[ItsBrian]

I would’ve got Eagle so fast if I was able to do these revised requirements 😂... but I wouldn’t of learned the actual skills. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by ItsBrian

[walk in the woods]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I think this is setting a precedent that will cause issues in the future. I am willing to bet people wil want this to become the norm, not the exception.

Yep.  There's nothing so permanent as a temporary program.

[Navybone]

What makes Scouts a successful program is having standards and holding the adult leaders and the scouts to them.  If the standards are dropped, then what the ranks mean drops.   This is the same reason that SMs or MB counselors are not to pick and choose the requirements they want to teach.  Either it means something, or it does not.

Some of these changes are OK and make some sense, but some are just ludicrous. 

[fred8033]

BSA does not cleanly define "virtual" and what BSA is implying.  There is a brief statement: "Even when using video conferencing, all virtual campouts and activities should consist of as many elements found on a normal outdoor campout or activity as possible."

Example:  Tenderfoot 1B ... patrol camp out.  ... BSA says virtual campouts are acceptable.  BSA fails to emphasize ... choose a spot to camp ... pitch a tent ... sleep outside in the tent you pitch ... schedule camp out activities ... create a menu ... acquire food ... pack your gear and pack the food ... light a fire ... have cracker barrel ... SLEEP IN THE TENT ... OUTSIDE ..., cook breakfast ... execute the activities plan ... pack up the tent ... practice leave no trace ... 

Perhaps BSA should say it's a real camp-out with online coordination?  Scout to regularly check-in during the "sleep out" with their PL.  PL with their SPL.  SPL with their SM.  

BSA should clarify if every parent needs to complete G2SS.  Who's the adult leader watching the kid outside start the fire, light the stove, sleep outside by-themselves?  Or is G2SS not an issue as the scout is under the parent's observation?  Does the parent know fire / stove / weather safety?  Is the neighborhood safe or will teenage neighbors mess with the kid?  Does the parent need to pitch their own tent?

Or is it not a real camp out?  Does "virtual" mean "pretend" or "make believe?"   

People will see "VIRTUAL" as easy and quick.  

BSA needs to emphasize that similar effort / commitment / requirements / preparation / work / GROWTH needs to happen.

 

3 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Before the BSA put this out, we had discussion on some ways of being flexible- parent filming the Scout on a cell phone as they built a fire in the backyard, learning knots via animated knots and then demonstrating it on a Zoom conference, taking a hike with a parent in an open area and using cell phone to capture pics of plants/animal signs.  Also we agreed that family members could be surrogate patrol members for cooking requirements.

I also see no reason BSA had to modify the requirements.  SM's always had flexibility to interpret if the scout fulfilled the requirements.  It's part of the game of scouting.  Over the phone?   Pictures as evidence?  Similar enough to be the same?  All scout leaders have been doing that for years.  For example, Tenderfoot 7a flag etiquette.  The scout could always video conference and perform it with another in his house while showing someone who could sign off on it.  

PROBLEM is "virtual camp outs" are not camp outs.  But perhaps real camp-outs coordinated via SMS and video conferencing could be effectively the same.  

PROBLEM is 2nd class 5B / 5C.  BSA is not waiving passing the beginner's swimming test, but adding words about 5C being able to be done on dry land?  How does that help?  It just adds confusion.  The scout is still blocked by 5B (swimming test) ... AND 5C never said it had to be done in water.  There are whole summer camps that passed 5C on dry land.  Preference water, but it had been done repeatedly.

PROBLEM is PARENTS will see virtual and push their kids to first class with a very very watered down result.  It already happens all the time.  By publishing as BSA has done, it will create a HUGE headache for SMs.  Are these requirement changes?  Guidance?  What are these words?  What is virtual?  

I'm just really confused.  More context should be given.  BSA should have published open-to-all guidance for scoutmaster how the existing requirements could be worked or fulfilled. 

I fear we now have a real MUSH. 

Now, we need a daily clean-up / change-list to track as this is cleaned up.

 

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, Navybone said:

What makes Scouts a successful program is having standards and holding the adult leaders and the scouts to them.  If the standards are dropped, then what the ranks mean drops.   This is the same reason that SMs or MB counselors are not to pick and choose the requirements they want to teach.  Either it means something, or it does not.

Some of these changes are OK and make some sense, but some are just ludicrous. 

I hugely agree.  Example:  2nd class 3B five mile hike ... The new statement drops the word "TAKE".  Take the hike.  I can plan any hike in two minutes.  Actually taking the hike takes real time, sweat and energy.  How can you drop the word "TAKE" ?  ... One of my son's said can't they at least use a treadmill ?

So BSA is an outdoor program emphasizing physical fitness and doing things the scout has never done

... but you never need to leave your chair ?

Edited April 15, 2020 by fred8033

[ItsBrian]

44 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I hugely agree.  Example:  2nd class 3B five mile hike ... The new statement drops the word "TAKE".  Take the hike.  I can plan any hike in two minutes.  Actually taking the hike takes real time, sweat and energy.  How can you drop the word "TAKE" ?  ... One of my son's said can't they at least use a treadmill ?

So BSA is an outdoor program emphasizing physical fitness and doing things the scout has never done

... but you never need to leave your chair ?

You can even google a premade hike plan and get it in 20 seconds! 
 

I don’t understand either. I get that BSA is making it possible to advance, but these new standards are too low.