Recruiting competition

[SMT376Richmond KY]

One of my Scouts asked me a question last night that troubles me. Here it is. Scoutmaster how come you said I couldn't go on the white water rafting trip the council is havin cause I'm 12 and didn't pass my swim test at summer camp but my friend Timmy, he's in Troop X, and he is going with his Troop and he's only 11 and he didn't even go to summer camp?

 

Now here's an excerpt from the flyer

 

For All Scouts, Venturers and Explorers over 14 years old.

 

Now here's what I told him Well being over 14 is one of the conditions of this high adventure outing as well as passing the swimmers test for activity in a boat on moving water. So you see Jimmy at age 12 you have yet to develop the muscle mass required for a strenous white water trip. Therefore I would not want to take the chance of anyone of our Scouts under 14 being hurt. You can still take your swimmers test at the YMCA lockin coming up as there will be an aquatics director there.

 

As to why Troop X is letting Timmy go. Well some people, despite what is the rules go ahead and break them. You've seen this happen at school I bet. Well Troop X has decided to do the wrong thing if Timmy attends this event that he is not ready for as a Scout. Sometimes is hard to do the right thing but in the end it's far better to err on the side of caution than to get someone hurt. Don't you think?

 

Troop X's boys are always luring our boys to join their Troop with trips like these. It's really difficult to counter sometimes with young boys who have school friends telling them of trips that are outside of G2SS guidelines or council high adventure outings with "For All Scouts, Venturers and Explorers over 14 years old." Any advice?

 

[Laurie]

It sounds to me as though you handled the situation well. I know of a Troop X that allows all boys, regardless of age, to go on this type of trip: rappelling, whitewater rafting, etc. by planning them itself. My son was in this troop. He asked to go to Troop Z though, and he is happy there, even though only those 14 and older (and he's not yet 14) get to go on the high adventure type trips. The difference between Troop Z and Troop X for him? He wanted consistent program, a chance to take training (Den Chief was his goal and he did it), and functioning patrols. He saw it in action, and the consistent fun activities that were his and the other boys to plan, with caring and knowledgeable adults who "stand around and do nothing but are pretty cool", and that was more fun than the 5 or 6 high adventure trips with nothing going on in between. He made a comment that was right on: "Dad could take me out to do this stuff, but I want Scouts". If you have a strong consistent program, you are delivering what you promised to deliver. If this young boy chooses to go to the other troop, just let him know he's always welcome to return. You haven't said much about the troop, but the boys can choose--and they tend to surprise us with some amazingly good choices!

[EagleInKY]

We have a boy in our troop that had been in a "Troop X". He had dropped out for a variety of reasons. Not sure what they all were, but suffice to say, he didn't enjoy the program. Now, he sometimes says, "but they do it in Troop X". I just respond saying "You know, I don't have anything to do with running that troop. They've made their decisions, as we have ours."

 

With that said, I have an open mind and will listen to what others are doing. In this case, is Troop X going on a family-rated Whitewater trip, or a more challenging one? That could make a difference between allowing 12 year olds go or not. (Although the swimmers test would be required no matter what).

[Bob White]

More important than what trips you go on are what trips do you come home from. The rules are there for your safety and the safety of others. Someone who allows you to do an activity that you are not fully prepared for is not concerned about you. We are. Do not worry, in a couple of years when you are ready to do this, the river will still be there waiting for you.

 

 

[Laurie]

Well said Bob, and I'll add to that if I may be so bold: during the waiting, the Scout has a chance to learn skills that will make the trip far better than if he were to go now. Safety makes fun even more fun!

[SMT376Richmond KY]

Great answer Bob! Eagle I'm not sure I didn't go past the brochure once I read it was for 14 and older. It's on the Ocoee river in TN. I'm not familiar with that one. I did go with my daughter's GS Troop on the Cumberland river below the falls class 3-4 due to rain the day prior and know from experience that the boys in our Troop are too young for that trip. Of course our boat was dumped 3 times and I was caught in a hydraulic on the first and thanks to the last boat captain was pulled out. It was wicked and I'm supposedly trained and know what to do. Of course my WW instructor always said your never fully trained until your caught in the current and have to use everything you know to get out. I just about did on that one. Couldn't imagine my young guys doing it they're not ready.

[EagleInKY]

There are several float trips offered in both WV & East Tennessee that offer a fun time and safe for boys your age. Our troop is very similar to yours, and we're looking into doing one of these next year. They offer trips suitable for a variety of ages and skill range. We'll have some of the same comments from the older/bigger boys, who feel ready to take on the bigger rapids. But they'll have to wait.

[9muckraker7]

This is probably besides the point, but I'll mention it anyway..

 

Troop X probably pays closer attention to the rules and policies of the organization running the activities (I doubt that the troop went on a whitewater rafting trip just as a troop; they probably booked a trip some miles down the river with a rafting organization separate from scouting [i.e.: Whitewater Challengers]), which often has lower age restrictions. All too often, the G2SS is ignored until some sort of legal conflict comes up. Troops who never had any such conflicts probably never bother to consult the G2SS on matters that aren't seemingly that important. (policies on two-deep leadership, guns and alcohol and violence would be of the more important policies of the G2SS; age restrictions and other "fine print" would seem of lesser importance)

 

Nonetheless, the troop is still a part of the BSA, and being that, it should adhere to all of the BSA's policies first.(This message has been edited by 9muckraker7)

[nldscout]

If this is a council trip, How could an 11 yr old go if they set the age at 14? If this is a troop trip like we do, ang age could attend if he is a swimmer.

[scoutldr]

We had a Troop X. Always broke the rules...SM refused to go to training or Roundtable. Never went to council camp. No popcorn or FOS. Not sure why this unit was in our District, since the CO was in another city....I guess bending the rules is ok, if it means getting a new unit on the books. The SM's son made Eagle last spring. Then the troop folded.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[scoutldr]

(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Bob White]

The CO allowing the unit to bend their rules has nothing to do with the council getting another unit on the books.

 

The goal of the council is t make scouting available to as many eligible youth as possibble. One way that is measured is through a growth in the number of charter organizations and units.

 

Not attending Roundtables, training courses, etc. and not supporting the council financially is not breaking any rules, it's just not good scouting. The responsibility is in the hands of the adult leaders that were selected and approved by the CO. The council and district can only offer support, it is up to mature and responsible adult volunteers to accept it.

 

It is fruitless for a unit to worry about the ability or quality of another to deliver the scouting program. That is not the unit's role. The scouts will come to you and in the long run you will be successful, as long as the unit you serve follows the program and delivers the best scouting program you can.

[EagleInKY]

The G2SS does not prohibit whitewater trips for scouts under 14. If you look at the age appropriate guidelines, for Rafting-Floating Water, is "Boy Scouts", not "Older Boy Scouts".

 

You need to read the G2SS rules for Safety Afloat. You can meet those requirements and provide a fun, safe, raft trip for your under-14 year olds.

[mich632]

I take our boys on a white water rafting trip every year.

 

When I first read some of the posts I was concerned, that I had missed something in the guide to safe scouting.

 

Here is the link to the age restrictions http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf.

 

There are no age restrictions for Whitewater rafting. There are restrictions placed in Safe Swim and Safety Afloat but nothing that is age specific.

 

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE REFERENCE ME TO BSA POLICY THAT LIMITS WHITEWATER RAFTING TO THOSE OVER 14?

 

I find that each whitewater rafting company establishes some fairly tight age restrictions based on the river they are services.

 

"Crab Apple White Water" which we use allows 12 year old to go on the Kennebuck river in Maine which is class 4-5. But the same outfitter restricts the Miller river in Mass to 14 year olds even though it is only class 2-3.

 

They look at the river difficulty, not just the class of water.

 

But again, can someone provide me BSA policy that restricts scouts under the age of 14 from doing whitewater?

 

[Bob White]

As far as I know only Cub Scouts are totally restricted. Boy Scouts with the needed training and physical abilities for the specific activity are allowed regardless of age.