Decission not to do Summer Camp

[ValleyBoy]

Up until this past week our troop was planning to attend our local councils summer camp.  last week while sitting on an Eagle Board the SM and I learned the summer camp had completely changed the summer camp program.  The program in the past had been to sign each scout up in the different merit badge time slots during summer camp.  We would have our new scouts take first aid and swimming  then what ever other classes they would like to take during summer camp.  Older scouts that had been to camp before could sign up for any classes they would like to take as long as they took one Eagle required class.  For this summer the camp has changed to a quest type program were each scouts signs up for a different quest that has about 4 merit badges that will be worked on inside that quest. Example of one of the quest. World Conservation—Environmental Science, Bird Study, Insect Study, Forestry, Nature.   If the scout wanted to take Environmental Science they would also have to take the others also even thought they might have no interest in any of the others or might already have the other merit badges.

We were informed of this change by another local SM and are working out the details of a week long canoe trip on one of our local rivers.  At last nights scout meeting we met with the parents an presented this change to them since we knew that some of them would have concerns about a canoe trip.  Then we informed the scouts, they we upset when we told them why we would not be going to summer camp until we told them about the canoe trip and the reason behind not doing summer camp.  

As a troop we do not have the adult resources to both summer camp and the canoe trip.

[Eagledad]

Do you have the resources for the canoe trip? I'm sure you do, but the misjudge the logistics required for such a trip. Food, patrol gear, personal gear and water gear add up to A LOT. Start planning NOW because this isn't a typical weekend trip for Patrols. A good place to start is to consider an outfitter and quiz them about your trip.

Barry 

[ValleyBoy]

34 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Do you have the resources for the canoe trip? I'm sure you do, but the misjudge the logistics required for such a trip. Food, patrol gear, personal gear and water gear add up to A LOT. Start planning NOW because this isn't a typical weekend trip for Patrols. A good place to start is to consider an outfitter and quiz them about your trip.

Barry 

As of now we have two troops committed to this trip and are waiting to hear back from a 3rd troop.  Several of the members of one of the other troops has made several trips to Northern Tier and will be assisting us on what food, patrol gear, personal gear and water gear.  All 3 troops are located along the river that the trip will be made on and have canoed or kayaked the area of the river near us.  Where we are playing the trip is along a lower section of the river starting several hours trip below our location.  Most of the outfitters located along the river only support day trips on the river.  We have the canoes and canoes trailers and are now working on the logistics of being along the river for an extended amount of time.  We will also be working with our local river keepers group which is the best group for information about canoeing or kayaking the river since this is what they mainly do and support besides monitor the health of the river.

Edited March 10, 2020 by ValleyBoy

[Pale Horse]

You told the Scouts they weren't going to Summer Camp? Why didn't the PLC make this decision?

[RememberSchiff]

 

57 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

Then we informed the scouts, they we upset when we told them why we would not be going to summer camp until we told them about the canoe trip and the reason behind not doing summer camp.  

...the adventure begins.  

[ValleyBoy]

14 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

You told the Scouts they weren't going to Summer Camp? Why didn't the PLC make this decision?

We are a small troop with right at 10 active scouts.  PLC is 2 youth.  The decision was made for the youth to make the choice between either summer camp or the canoe trip by all the youth of the troop instead of the PLC since it effected them all and as a troop we do not have the adult resources to have supported both.

When I started this thread I knew that this was one of the issues that would be asked.  Being a very small troop we have to plan all trips and outing around 3-4 adults schedules  besides the schedules of the youth and there families.  Yes it effects the decisions of the PLC.  Yes I wish it did not  and we were able to be an idea troop with all decisions make by the youth then as adults being able to go with there youth lead program.  Not having the adult resources to do so we have to do the best that we can to deliver the program with the resources we have.

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

... the logistics required for such a trip. Food, patrol gear, personal gear and water gear add up to A LOT. Start planning NOW because this isn't a typical weekend trip for Patrols. A good place to start is  ...

Swimming MB, Lifesaving those who have Swimming, BSA Guard for those who have Lifesaving

Canoeing MB, A visit to a Canoe Trails club for those who have the MB

Soil and Water Conservation MB, a visit to the USGS or state geological services for those who have the MB

First Aid MB, Emergency Preparedness MB, a visit to a local Swift Water Rescue for those who have the MB

Cooking MB, a visit to a cast-iron cooking competition for those who have the MB.

Personal Fitness MB, Personal Management MB, Communications MB ...

You aren't so much saying no to the summer camp quest program as you are saying yes for an adventure-specific quest program.

[ParkMan]

18 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

We are a small troop with right at 10 active scouts.  PLC is 2 youth.  The decision was made for the youth to make the choice between either summer camp or the canoe trip by all the youth of the troop instead of the PLC since it effected them all and as a troop we do not have the adult resources to have supported both.

When I started this thread I knew that this was one of the issues that would be asked.  Being a very small troop we have to plan all trips and outing around 3-4 adults schedules  besides the schedules of the youth and there families.  Yes it effects the decisions of the PLC.  Yes I wish it did not  and we were able to be an idea troop with all decisions make by the youth then as adults being able to go with there youth lead program.  Not having the adult resources to do so we have to do the best that we can to deliver the program with the resources we have.

Not gonna nitpick you here.  I know it's frustrating when you ask one question, but get advice on something different.  You approach here seems like a fair one to me.  But just some food for thought... 

1. Regardless the reason for circumventing the PLC - by doing so you dis-empower the PLC.  What I would encourage in a similar situation is for the SM to sit with the SPL and discuss how best to make a decision in a situation like this.  Then, let the SPL go off and work with the PLC to have that decision made.  It's is most probably that it would end up with the PLC deciding that a whole troop meeting organized by them is the way to go.  As a result you've now empowered the PLC to own this and in the process helped the PLC learn how to navigate a situation like this - an important skill. 

2. Constraints are part of life.  There's no reason that the PLC cannot function as intended and simply be presented with constraints.  PLC - you need to pick a trip - here's the weekends that are available and the adults who can help.  You decide what we do.  Or, maybe they find it too limiting and decide to recruit some friends.  Either way seems like a win-win to me.

In this case the decision is done, so I think you move on.  I just plant the suggestions for next time something like this comes up.

[njdrt-rdr]

4 hours ago, ValleyBoy said:

Up until this past week our troop was planning to attend our local councils summer camp.  last week while sitting on an Eagle Board the SM and I learned the summer camp had completely changed the summer camp program.  The program in the past had been to sign each scout up in the different merit badge time slots during summer camp.  We would have our new scouts take first aid and swimming  then what ever other classes they would like to take during summer camp.  Older scouts that had been to camp before could sign up for any classes they would like to take as long as they took one Eagle required class.  For this summer the camp has changed to a quest type program were each scouts signs up for a different quest that has about 4 merit badges that will be worked on inside that quest. Example of one of the quest. World Conservation—Environmental Science, Bird Study, Insect Study, Forestry, Nature.   If the scout wanted to take Environmental Science they would also have to take the others also even thought they might have no interest in any of the others or might already have the other merit badges.

We were informed of this change by another local SM and are working out the details of a week long canoe trip on one of our local rivers.  At last nights scout meeting we met with the parents an presented this change to them since we knew that some of them would have concerns about a canoe trip.  Then we informed the scouts, they we upset when we told them why we would not be going to summer camp until we told them about the canoe trip and the reason behind not doing summer camp.  

As a troop we do not have the adult resources to both summer camp and the canoe trip.

For the issue of not enough adults.　

In the past for summer camp, we've juggled adults at camp so that no one had to take an entire week off work. We even broke it down to time slots during the day. We had one adult would would come to camp at 7pm, and stay until 7am and then go to to work. At 7am another adult (a dad or a mom) would come and spend the day at camp and cover that time slot. It was a bit of juggling but it worked. It was also a good experience for some adults that don't generally go to anything to see what the boys did at camp. It was very sucessful.　

As far as the merit badge program changing. Are there any other camps you can go to? We have 4 that are within an hour to hour and a half away. We've been to them all. 　

[scotteg83]

As fun as a canoe trip is, you are taking away the experience and advancement opportunities that a summer camp offers.

 

Not knowing where you are located, but did you price out and check other summer camps?  In Maine, we have 2 in council, and 4-5 out of council in a reasonable 2-3 hour drive.  We do have 1 camp that does the "quest" style, and that's why we stay away from that one.  Scouts can go provisional with the troop, but the entire troop will never plan to go there.

 

When I was a youth, we went on a weekend canoeing trip, but our leader covered both that and summer camp.  I have lots of fond memories from it, but it was all putting skills to use, and not earning anything from it.  Maybe making sure both can happen would be best, if you can get someone to be a Canoeing, Fishing, etc Merit Badge counselor. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by scotteg83

[ValleyBoy]

1 hour ago, njdrt-rdr said:

For the issue of not enough adults.　

As far as the merit badge program changing. Are there any other camps you can go to? We have 4 that are within an hour to hour and a half away. We've been to them all. 　

For the last several years we have attended summer camp with another troop to have enough adult leadership.  For several years only had 2 adults at camp between the 2 troops.  This would have been the first year that we would not have had to attend along with another troop for summer camp.  Yes there are several other camps we can look into attending that are within 2 to 3 hours of our location.  Our local council has been good in being real flexible on camp payment and  numbers attending which has been an issue with the troop in the past.

[ValleyBoy]

1 hour ago, scotteg83 said:

As fun as a canoe trip is, you are taking away the experience and advancement opportunities that a summer camp offers.

 

Not knowing where you are located, but did you price out and check other summer camps?  In Maine, we have 2 in council, and 4-5 out of council in a reasonable 2-3 hour drive.  We do have 1 camp that does the "quest" style, and that's why we stay away from that one.  Scouts can go provisional with the troop, but the entire troop will never plan to go there.

 

When I was a youth, we went on a weekend canoeing trip, but our leader covered both that and summer camp.  I have lots of fond memories from it, but it was all putting skills to use, and not earning anything from it.  Maybe making sure both can happen would be best, if you can get someone to be a Canoeing, Fishing, etc Merit Badge counselor. 

We will be working on several different merit badges during the canoe trip so the scouts will still have advancement opportunities.  We also have 4/5 camp located with less than 3 hours of our location that I am sure we will lookin attending next year if our local camp stays with the quest program 

We usually make 1/2 weekend camping trips a year were we have canoe/kayak day trips along the river using  a local property along the river as a home base camp.  10 miles above our location is one of the largest lakes inside our 2 state area. within the next 35 miles down  river there are 5 dams and 3 lakes.  The property we camp on is located between 2 old cotton mill dams have only have about 1 1/2 miles between them.  There is no safe way to get around these 2 dams and we never get on the river when the dam 10 miles above us is generating between these 2 dams.  When using this property we always check the generating schedule and know and watch for the signs that the dam has started to generate.  We are located along a very dangerous part of our local river that you have to respect.   

I can remember only several things about  the 4 or 5 summer camps I attended after my first one but I have many memories of the 4 week long hiking that I make as a scout  and the new skills I learned during these trips. After the first one I learned what not to carry.  I feel like this will be one of those trips that each of the youth will remember years from now. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by ValleyBoy