Unoffical end of neck slides

[Eagledad]

30 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

y'all sound like a bunch of grumpy people.  If the youth want to wear the friendship knot, let them.   

Yes, but we don't know what the youth want on this basically adult forum.

And since we don't know what they want, we don't know who the grumpy adults are. Fashionista's or traditionalists. 

Barry

[mashmaster]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but we don't know what the youth want on this basically adult forum.

And since we don't know what they want, we don't know who the grumpy adults are. Fashionista's or traditionalists. 

Barry

My scouts like to wear both kinds.  When they wear the NYLT neckers they wear slides, when they wear bigger neckers they use friendship knots.  Sea Scout and Venturers also rarely wear neckers because they prefer not to unless it is for a formal event.  There needs to be BSA buffs, they are more likely to wear those.

[Chadamus]

1 minute ago, mashmaster said:

There needs to be BSA buffs, they are more likely to wear those.

Absolutely! Buffs are extremely popular in my area.

[Jameson76]

Bandannas / Buffs / shemaghs are what's in.....

Get with the times you "bunch of grumpy people"

[desertrat77]

When people like a uniform, they wear it willingly.  Even cheerfully.  Same goes for parts of the uniform.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by desertrat77

[ParkMan]

Our troop has never been a big fan of them.  I proposed them a few times - but the Scouts and adults would shrug and say - no way.  Despite initially proposing them to my troop - I've come around to their thinking.  Truthfully, I almost never see them around even in other troops.

Gotta admit - I deep down I never really got the whole necker thing.  I think I thought it was a bit of an American take on Scouting that we focused less on the necker.  Interesting to me now to see that we're now being influenced by what happened at the World Jamboree.

That said - I'm all for a Scout wearing the necker or not.  If they wear it - tie it however they want to.

 

 

 

[ScoutWithNecker]

On 3/9/2020 at 12:21 PM, The Latin Scot said:

I'll admit I am ... not a fan. I love larger neckerchiefs, don't get me wrong (and being a slightly-built fellow, most neckers are large on me), but this trend towards the 'friendship knot' is honestly rather silly-looking if you ask me (not that anybody has, but I'm answering anyway).

Part of the reason we use slides or slipknots is so that, in an emergency, the neckerchief can be whipped right off and used as needed. It's the very practicality of the neckerchief as an emergency tool and garment that makes it so important and and demonstrative of utilitarian Scouting values. Taking the time to undo a fancy knot like that seems like the very antithesis of that intent - a Scout should be able to snap off his neckerchief to use as a first aid or emergency item in half a second, and that kind of knot would take forever to undo (especially if wet). Slides are also long-used, venerated tokens of Scouting, and I cannot imagine them disappearing any time soon. I love my little collection of slides, gathered from every era of Scouting, each with a story to tell. Furthermore, from a purely aesthetic, sartorially subjective point of view, it's simply a less attractive way to wear the necker, so I'm simply going to respectfully ignore it and hope that it's merely a passing fad. I myself shall continue to encourage the wearing of the neckerchief as outlined in the current Guide to Awards and Insignia.

Of course, I've only been at this for a few years as a leader - mayhaps some of the more experienced Scouters here would opine differently. But I am not pleased with this recent fad myself.

I love neckerchiefs, too. And I am so happy that National is making them larger, though I have a large supply of the vintage full-squares to wear with troop tee-shirts. I really do not care for the friendship knot. Nothing looks better than a scout wearing the neckerchief over the collar. I will say this. The neckerchief seems to be making a.big come-back among younger scouts. Every troop in our area wears neckerchiefs. The scouts wear them readily, smartly and proudly. It is rare to see a scout pulling off his neckerchief and shoving it into his pocket the second that the closing ceremony is over.

[Liz]

We have the National Camp-In streaming to the TV today. I've noticed everyone wearing a necker is using the friendship knot. They also had a brief tutorial for how to tie the friendship knot in your neckerchief. 

I don't have an opinion on this. It's just interesting to see. 

[5thGenTexan]

10 minutes ago, Liz said:

We have the National Camp-In streaming to the TV today. I've noticed everyone wearing a necker is using the friendship knot. They also had a brief tutorial for how to tie the friendship knot in your neckerchief. 

I don't have an opinion on this. It's just interesting to see. 

I have been helping my Bear with the friendship knot.  For the 5K today we both wore out neckerchiefs with the friendship knot instead of a slide.  I kinda like not messing with a slide, so...  I was already thinking today we might be done with slides. 

 

Edit:  More formal events I might still wear a slide.

Edited May 2, 2020 by 5thGenTexan

[SSScout]

This "debate" goes back to that debacle with Yve St. Larent (spelling?  ) back in the 70's when for some god forsaken reason, the BSA decided they needed to "update" the uniform, and so asked that fashion decider, Mssr Larent  to redesign the Scout uniform. The  short sleeves gained cuffs, the no collar gained a collar, the pockets got smaller, the long sleeve shirt was (I think) abandoned, the material became softer and lighter (and more snag prone) and the necker shrunk from the usual (then ) 36" or larger (either fully square or on a side triangle) to a polite 24" on a side ONLY triangle.  It became a cravat, a fashion accessory, rather than the possible tool previously mentioned. 

As a fashion accessory, the necker became superfluous, and gradually became "optional", rather than something a Scout might need to have. Slides/woggles became (at least for Cubs) a REQUIRED profit item.  I wore one yellow necker and one Cub slide thru my 5 years of Cubs. When  I joined the Troop, I was presented with the Troop Necker, a large one, with some ceremony. It was noted that the necker was designed by Scouts in the Troop and had some important history behind it. It identified the Troop at events. 

Need to have ? Did I say that?  Yep.  Originally, in Pleisticene  Scout time, it was encouraged to wear the uniform (If your family could afford it) with the necker because it was a piece of expected, included gear in a Scout's kit. The whole uni  was intended for camping, hiking, special events (patrol a parade?) , it was not intended merely as ceremonial. Then came YSL. 

I have an old book, "Matching Mountains With The Boy Scout Uniform" by Edward F. Reimer from 1929.   It lists no fewer than 55 different uses for the necker,  from identification in games (tie around the arm ) to first aid (sling, bandage, ankle support), to signal flag, dust mask (!), and  horse bridle . Yes, the slide was intended to allow the necker to be QUICKLY removed for use.  And some of the older slides in my collection are noticeably larger. That tradition, that historical reference (if not the  actual utility) is what is lost when the necker is reduced in size and reduced to "optional". 

That red necker of my yoooth with the dusty boots labeled ""ALWAYS ON THE GO 759""   has several small tears and holes in it where it was turned into a wigwag flag or tied onto an ankle for Capture the Flag  Tough cotton. 

Friendship knot?   That I know was first  intended to be tied low on the necker so the whole thing can be whipped off to trade with others at the World Jamboree, so I was told by a fellow some years ago.  It lends itself for that purpose.

Big Necker on Cubs?   They can grow into it.  We did.   Small necker on Scouts and Scouters?   It is a cravat, and on a tall man or woman, looks like . . . . a cravat, not a tool  or tradition worn proudly to remind us of what Scout was and  (as if it ever wasn't)  could be again . 

[MikeS72]

9 hours ago, SSScout said:

This "debate" goes back to that debacle with Yve St. Larent (spelling?  ) back in the 70's when for some god forsaken reason, the BSA decided they needed to "update" the uniform, and so asked that fashion decider, Mssr Larent  to redesign the Scout uniform

A quick search gave the correct spelling as Yves St. Laurent.  Didn't need to search the fact that it was Oscar De La Renta who did the 1980 redesign.  While many fellow old timers complain about the redesign, and in particular the epaulets, I liked them, as I was constantly having to adjust my sash at OA events.  That is probably an unintended benefit, but one I welcomed.

While my troop does not wear the neckerchief, I do have quite a few, going back well over 50 year.  I do still occasionally wear them when in one of my 60's/70's uniforms.  Still have my very first one, from '64, although it is no longer in wearable condition.

[Eagle94-A1]

Necker became optional with the 1972 Improved Scouting Program. Thankfully the majority of the troops I've been in had neckers. When I was a DE and worked for supply,they did not want me wearing a necker. Which surprised me when I worked for them since the uniform was meant to be used as a model and advertising.

I still have the troop necker I was in as a youth. Green Bar Bill's signature is barely legible because it got washed after using it for an actual first aid injury. While I regret the signature is barely legible, I think Bill would approve of the necker's use.

I have a bunch of neckers I have collected over the years from trades, attending events, gifts, and yes ebay to replace some lost in Katrina. But there are two custom neckers I am looking for: the YOULBURY INTERNATIONAL CAMPSITE SERVICE TEAM NECKER and a. KINGSDOWN INTERNATIONAL SCOUT CAMPSITE SERVICE CREW NECKER. I know how hard those neckers are to get because they ran out of them when I was on the crew and team in 1995. Especially the Kingsdown necker since they camp was sold a few years back.

 

As far as slides go, While the Friendship knot is popular, slides tend to have meaning. Some troops have custom made slides like mine growing up. Other slides have meaning to the wearer.

There is one necker I have that will be worn with the Friendship Knot, my 1995 WSJ necker. That's because the WSJ slide has too small an opening for both necker ends to go through. SO I have a slide on each end, and a freindship knot connecting the two ends together.

[desertrat77]

12 hours ago, SSScout said:

...the long sleeve shirt was (I think) abandoned, the material became softer and lighter (and more snag prone)....

Long sleeve shirts were available, but I don't think they were very popular.  I had a long sleeve shirt when we lived in Arizona, and gained a couple more when we moved to Alaska.  You are correct, the material was soft, too soft, and this happened after only a couple washes.  I have two of my old shirts in a footlocker, here's a previously posted photo of one of them.   I've kept the shirts well protected; the material is pretty much the same as when I retired them in '81.

 

[TAHAWK]

During WWII, with only olive drab cloth available, the dark  khaki  uniform (medium brown-green) was replaced with 100% cotton olive drab.  

Following 1965, the uniform became lighter OD, frail, cotton-polyester.  The "tearaway" uniform.  We have trouble obtaining good examples for our museum since they were replaced so rapidly as unsatisfactory and are typically donated with significant damage.   Trouser crotches are often torn open.  This is when the V-neck shirt went away.

The next uniform shirt, before we ceased to have a uniform, is the khaki "Oscar" shirt of cotton-polyester.  It is, objectively, an improvement to its immediate predecessor in terms of standing up to use.  

When uniformity went away, replaced by a brand, we got 100% polyester shirts, 100% cotton shirts, and a variety of pockets and buttons., not to mention a range of BSA  brand  trousers, trouser-shorts, and shorts - all distinctive from across the room- not "uniform."  

Long-sleeved versions have always been available

 

[SSScout]

Oscar, right. Thank you for the correction.  

I guess it boils down to visual vs useful vs tradition.  A uniform is meant to identify the wearer as a member of a group. Note the recent posting from our German brother Scout.