Summer Camps and the Coronavirus

[MikeS72]

10 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Indications are they will refund all fees.  Send a note to the council and they should process quickly

Our council (Central Florida) has stated multiple times that all fees will be refunded for weeks cancelled by the council (still have a target date of July 5 for camp to open), or if families choose to cancel themselves.

I can only imagine the fallout in any council that chooses to cancel summer programs at any level, and then attempts to keep people's money.

We normally have a group attend our local camp in June, and a group go somewhere out of state in early July.  Our June week has been cancelled, and will result in refunds.  As of today, our out of state week is still on, though several families have withdrawn.  I am a little leery of the ambiguous wording on the out of state camp's covid-19 information page:

Quote

We will hold summer camp this summer!  Currently, the Council is planning on holding summer camp at Camp Rainey Mountain and at Scoutland as scheduled.  At the same time, we will be flexible if necessary.   We will update you if dates are rescheduled. 

Hopefully there is not a disconnect between 'we will be flexible if necessary' and giving full refunds to scouts who are unable to attend.

[ItsBrian]

8 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Here in MA, facemasks are a state mandate whenever out in public, for anyone age over the age of 2.  The signal from the Gov is that will be with us through the summer, and possibly even into the school year.  I fully expect it will be a requirement for camps.

The same for NJ, but I can’t see it feasible for a camp.

[Jackdaws]

12 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Indications are they will refund all fees.  Send a note to the council and they should process quickly

Yes I spoke to the camping coordinator and filled out the form they had sent out in an email.   Stinks we had to cancel.  Was pretty excited about a new camp but it is what it is. 

[Ronmass]

Massachusetts here ...Has anyone thought about the lawsuits that may arise from taking a chance and opening Summer Camps ? 

Is your medical staff ready to get a call from a hospital that a scoutmaster or staff person is critically ill from COVID 19 ?  What about all the campers etc that was in contact with that person ?   

Do we have trained people to clean /sanitize every item that could be touched  and when touched has to be re cleaned and sanitized ? What 12 yo camper is going to wear a mask in 90 degree temps at the docks or at the shooting range..Show me an adult staffer who wants to be responsible for sanitizing every firearm after every shooter and has to stay 6 feet away ? 

Someone at the entrance checking each visitors temperature ?  Is that someone going to be certified checking the temps ?  Is that same someone ready to talk to a lawyer who may say .."hey, the temp checker was a 13 yo kid that was untrained. Who hired him and put him in that position ?"  What certification does he hold to do that ?"  Ya throw a lot of mud against the wall...some of it may just stick"  Risk vs Reward...

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 minutes ago, Ronmass said:

throw a lot of mud against the wall...some of it may just stick"  Risk vs Reward...

Don't see how National would weigh in on this.  It would erode their bankruptcy argument that councils are autonomous.  That is why they would only issue standards/guidelines to councils which choose to go ahead with their camps.  The guidelines/standards is the CYA for National.  Any departure from those is on the camp staff/ council that hired them.  My bet is, most of the holdouts are biding their time hoping for some relaxation of restrictions or state guidelines that give them some room to operate.  But hope is not a course of action 😁

[SteveMM]

My daughter is about to age out of Girl Scouts, so we still get notifications from their local council here in Central Virginia.  They just announced that they are closing down their local camp activities for the summer.  They don't do a full week-long overnight camp like Boy Scouts, but they do a week-long evening camp.  Because it's just an evening camp, they don't have to deal with things like meals.  

[yknot]

As far as I know, there are no formal CDC guidelines yet issued for the opening of summer camps. There are draft recommendations that the CDC issued however that were intended to keep communities safe. They outline the following:

- They seem to envision only day camps opening

- Camps in earlier phases are limited to kids from the same local geographic area -- in the draft guidelines local appears to mean municipal

- No mixing of kids or staff from high and low transmission areas 

- Enhanced social distancing measures in place

- Large group facilities or activities closed or cancelled

- Assumes that camp has adequate safety materials inventory (hand sanitizer, disinfectants, masks, gloves, etc.)

- Campers stay in the same group throughout the day, ideally with the same staff

I have not seen council camps adopting these measures. As far as I've seen, no one is monitoring what geographic area scouters are coming from or what their local transmission rates are. In our area, we have wildly divergent transmission rates by county and even by municipality. Camps have also not made it clear if units will remain in one group, nor have they made it clear how they will handle the adult leadership. To follow the intent of these guidelines, the same parents would need to stay the week but at least in our unit it doesn't work that way -- parents take shifts. 

To me it seems pretty clear that most camps should not be operating or, if they are, operating in a completely different format than traditional scout summer camp. I think in the next couple weeks, more and more camps will have to cancel simply because the numbers keep going up. Even if you are not a high risk family yourself, it would seem un scoutlike to attend camp and risk bringing back more cases to your own locality. I also think it's not scout worthy to keep reading how at risk scouts will need to stay home. We don't do activities that scouts with diabetes, asthma, food allergies, physical disabilities, etc.,  can't do because that would not be inclusive. Yet we're willing to leave a large segment of our kids behind because they live with grandma or have some underlying health condition. That doesn't sit well with me. Summer camp isn't a high adventure trip that requires specific skills or training -- it's meant to be a unit activity. 

[HashTagScouts]

3 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

The same for NJ, but I can’t see it feasible for a camp.

I'm sure it is one of many factors that are going into the decisions to cancel camp.  Social distancing is going to have to be a part of any camp operation at this point.  Large gatherings at campfires will need to be altered to allow spacing between individuals, frequent hand washing will be a necessity (I personally don't know of any camp that has hot water at every campsite, and I also am reticent to become the handwashing police), camp wide activities may need to be altered (like inter-troop relay races, OA call outs, etc.).

 

I also dread the parents who send their kid off to camp with one disposal-type mask that gets destroyed by sundown on day one.

Edited May 7, 2020 by HashTagScouts

[5thGenTexan]

How do you keep this transmission source clean between EACH person putting thier hands on it not to mention thier water that goes to the mouth?

[Eagle1993]

2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

How do you keep this transmission source clean between EACH person putting thier hands on it not to mention thier water that goes to the mouth?

Good point.  I'm guessing the traditional bug juice will not fly this summer.  Individual water bottles/drinks. 

[yknot]

7 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Good point.  I'm guessing the traditional bug juice will not fly this summer.  Individual water bottles/drinks. 

Someone with clean hands is going to have to stand there and fill up the individual water bottles. You can't have a hundred hands touch that spigot and it would be a waste of hand sanitizer (that no one yet seems to have) to sanitize between each use. Plus, sanitizer is really not all that effective the way most people use it. You've got to glop it on and let it sit for a minute or two before touching anything.  

[Eagle1993]

24 minutes ago, yknot said:

Someone with clean hands is going to have to stand there and fill up the individual water bottles. You can't have a hundred hands touch that spigot and it would be a waste of hand sanitizer (that no one yet seems to have) to sanitize between each use. Plus, sanitizer is really not all that effective the way most people use it. You've got to glop it on and let it sit for a minute or two before touching anything.  

Not with this..

[yknot]

31 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Not with this..

Someone still has to hand them out multiple times a day. And then someone has to put a name on them so they don't pick up someone else's bottle if they put it down. The bottom line is it's kids and there are a dozen things like this that are going to be a problem. It's one thing if you are trying to guard against run of the mill stomach bugs or colds at camp. It's another if you're trying to avoid spreading a potentially fatal virus during a pandemic. If scout camps were on top of this, we should be seeing more proactive communications but in my area at least there has been nothing other than the same boiler plate precautions that seem pretty tepid. 

[Eagle1993]

2 minutes ago, yknot said:

Someone still has to hand them out multiple times a day. And then someone has to put a name on them so they don't pick up someone else's bottle if they put it down. The bottom line is it's kids and there are a dozen things like this that are going to be a problem. It's one thing if you are trying to guard against run of the mill stomach bugs or colds at camp. It's another if you're trying to avoid spreading a potentially fatal virus during a pandemic. If scout camps were on top of this, we should be seeing more proactive communications but in my area at least there has been nothing other than the same boiler plate precautions that seem pretty tepid. 

I think you are going to need to figure this out until there is a vaccine or decide not to go camping.  We are already talking as a Troop as to how to help reduce risk.  Given that a vaccine may not be available for years, Troops that begin planning will do much better than those that either ignore the risk OR decide to stay inside until 2022+

[yknot]

There's no problem with going camping. I think we're all working on that and expecting to be able to do it fairly soon. It's pretty manageable locally in small patrol or unit groups with smart people and good protocols in place. It's traditional summer camp and regional activities that are the issue.  CDC draft guidelines advise local geographic area camps only. None of the scout summer camps I know of around here are local.