Scouting? Adventure club or JROTC

[fred8033]

A fundamental problem is BSA markets adventure, but delivers JROTC.   My statement is absolutist, but reflects a chicken and egg issue.  Which do we emphasize first and which comes as a natural result.  I write as I'm often sad when I see "Sometimes it feels more like an adventure club than a scout troop."   A valid statement made by a respected scouter, but it does so so make me sad.  

My personal view is that scouting is best served by focusing on adventure and activities.  Getting the scouts out going places and doing things.  Then, the structures necessary to achieve adventure and activities naturally drive teaching leadership, etc.  Youth up front running things. Dividing into sub-teams.  Mentoring and teaching skills, etc.   

I also hold this view because from what I've seen the vast majority of adults are horrible at explicitly teaching leadership.  In fact, I often disagree with what they call leadership.  IMHO, the best way to teach leadership is by modeling the right behaviors and letting the scouts get out in front of their fellow scouts.  Scouts learn best by watching and doing.  

That's why I don't mind people calling BSA an adventure club.  Because I think leadership, physical fitness, citizenship is a natural result of the right primary focus... 

Adventure.  

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by fred8033

[desertrat77]

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

A fundamental problem is BSA markets adventure, but delivers JROTC.   My statement is absolutist, but reflects a chicken and egg issue.  Which do we emphasize first and which comes as a natural result.  I write as I'm often sad when I see "Sometimes it feels more like an adventure club than a scout troop."   A valid statement made by a respected scouter, but it does so so make me sad.  

My personal view is that scouting is best served by focusing on adventure and activities.  Getting the scouts out going places and doing things.  Then, the structures necessary to achieve adventure and activities naturally drive teaching leadership, etc.  Youth up front running things. Dividing into sub-teams.  Mentoring and teaching skills, etc.   

I also hold this view because from what I've seen the vast majority of adults are horrible at explicitly teaching leadership.  In fact, I often disagree with what they call leadership.  IMHO, the best way to teach leadership is by modeling the right behaviors and letting the scouts get out in front of their fellow scouts.  Scouts learn best by watching and doing.  

That's why I don't mind people calling BSA an adventure club.  Because I think leadership, physical fitness, citizenship is a natural result of the right primary focus... 

Adventure.  

 

Fred, I concur with your thoughts. 

As a former JROTC instructor, I can attest that oftentimes scouting is neither scouting nor JROTC.  Frankly, we have too many adults at all levels in scouting that have zero interest in adventure.  They enjoy the trappings of scouting--meetings, uniforms, badges, paperwork, classroom training.  But their lack of interest in adventure sets the tone for the unit, the district, the council.  The public picks up on this as well.  The BSA has encouraged this dynamic for decades.

An aside, in many schools JROTC isn't JROTC either.  Leadership is often taught/spoon fed in lectures, which are as dull and uninspiring as much of our "leadership" training is in the BSA.  Be it scouts or cadets, you are correct:  leaders model the right behavior and the scouts/cadets then put into practice what they've seen. 

I think this drawing captures the BSA today.  (And many JROTC units, for that matter.)   Edit:  Drawing by UK Scouter John Sweet.  (Thanks @MattR!)

Edited March 2, 2020 by desertrat77

[dkurtenbach]

5 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

You could take that bottom cartoon and change the setting from indoors to outdoors, and you'd have a modern Scout campout or summer camp.

[MattR]

@desertrat77, I did a google search on that image and found that the signature is John Sweet. He also wrote a "scout pioneering" book in 1974, a "patrol meeting blue prints" book in 1961 and a "more patrol activities book" in 1951. There was one copy of the blue prints book so I bought it. Just the idea of that book is intriguing. Anyway, I think John is/was a UK scouter.

https://www.amazon.com/John-Sweet/e/B001KIGQI6/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

[desertrat77]

4 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

You could take that bottom cartoon and change the setting from indoors to outdoors, and you'd have a modern Scout campout or summer camp.

So true!

2 minutes ago, MattR said:

@desertrat77, I did a google search on that image and found that the signature is John Sweet. He also wrote a "scout pioneering" book in 1974, a "patrol meeting blue prints" book in 1961 and a "more patrol activities book" in 1951. There was one copy of the blue prints book so I bought it. Just the idea of that book is intriguing. Anyway, I think John is/was a UK scouter.

https://www.amazon.com/John-Sweet/e/B001KIGQI6/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

Thank you Matt, great info! 

[ParkMan]

The problem in all of this is two fold:

1) Our standard materials and adult training lead to lecture/school approach.  A volunteer needs to use some imagination to avoid this.

2) Some units are doing this well today.  They know how to lead with adventure and make it fun.

My takeaway is that this isn't a general condemnation of Scouting.  Again - some leaders do this very well.  But, for your rank-n-file leader it's too easy to fall into this trip. 

I'm not sure how to correct this.

 

[JoeBob]

G2SS has killed a lot of the boys adventure.

[desertrat77]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

The problem in all of this is two fold:

1) Our standard materials and adult training lead to lecture/school approach.  A volunteer needs to use some imagination to avoid this.

2) Some units are doing this well today.  They know how to lead with adventure and make it fun.

My takeaway is that this isn't a general condemnation of Scouting.  Again - some leaders do this very well.  But, for your rank-n-file leader it's too easy to fall into this trip. 

I'm not sure how to correct this.

 

I think we correct this by bringing back the type of scouting depicted in the upper panel of the drawing.  The scouts are learning to lead by actually leading, being outdoors, and engaging in scout skills that encourage adventure.

Patrol leaders teach scout skills and lead their scouts.  The SPL is the roving on-scene leader watching, correcting, encouraging PLs.  The SM is on the edge of the field, with a cup of coffee, a comfortable chair and an eagle eye on how the SPL is doing.

Today we have the opposite model.  Indoor minded adults.  Adults stealing the duties of the PLs and SPLs.  Lectures instead of hikes.  No patrol identity or autonomy.  Boring. 

Is the type of scouting in the top panel of the drawing perfect?  No, lots of chaos.  And some risk.  But ultimately it's the most effective type of scouting in the world.  And it's a good leadership lab too.

Edited March 2, 2020 by desertrat77

[fred8033]

10 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

The scouts are learning to lead by actually leading...

I love that statement.  I've heard too other adult leaders say scouts are not ready to lead or not old-enough to lead.  ... The above statement reflects my view that scouts learn by doing.  If our scouts are young, they can still lead.  Inexperienced, they can still leader.  We as adult leaders continually adjust and quietly coach and slightly help as necessary with the continuous eye toward how can we step back.  ... I swear I bite my tongue every time I hear another leader say the scouts are too young, too inexperienced, too <insert your favorite excuse> .  When I hear it, I usually think that's not an adult I want my scouts around as it's the adult's excuse to over-engineer the scouting program or inject themselves into the program.   

Edited March 3, 2020 by fred8033

[desertrat77]

10 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I love that statement.  I've heard too other adult leaders say scouts are not ready to lead or not old-enough to lead.  ... The above statement reflects my view that scouts learn by doing.  If our scouts are young, they can still lead.  Inexperienced, they can still leader.  We as adult leaders continually adjust and quietly coach and slightly help as necessary with the continuous eye toward how can we step back.  ... I swear I bite my tongue every time I hear another leader say the scouts are too young, too inexperienced, too <insert your favorite excuse> .  When I hear it, I usually think that's not an adult I want my scouts around as it's the adult's excuse to over-engineer the scouting program or inject themselves into the program.   

Thanks Fred, I definitely agree.  This method is very important to me.  It's how I learned the ropes as PL of the Stampeding Antelopes many moons ago.  Zero classroom training.   I was given plenty of room to succeed or fail.  And wow, some of my failures I remember to this day.

But then we Antelopes hit our stride.  Winning the "best campsite" award and placing second for the stew cook off at a monthly troop camp out (there were five patrols in this troop).  Honor ribbons at camporees.  Good times.

The key elements:

- Formal leadership training for youth was limited to one scout per year in my troop.  Usually the SPL.  He would go to Brownsea II and return with high praise.  Everyone else?  OJT.

- The SPL gave constant feedback and coaching.  And it wasn't always pleasant.  He was the on-scene leader.  He ran troop meetings and outings.  Not an adult.

- Sometimes a JASM strolled by, observing, making a few wry comments, then ambling on.  These guys were Eagles and graduated SPLs.  Rock stars, in our eyes.  We listened and jumped.   We didn't want to look foolish in front of them.

- Adults?  Far away.  In their campsite, or in the SM's office during meetings, rarely heard from unless something really good happened.  Or bad.  "ANTELOPE PATROL LEADER, FRONT AND CENTER!"  I knew I was in for it then. 

Unfortunately, today I rarely see a troop dynamic that even remotely resembles what I just described.  Adults run everything.  Buying groceries.  Directing events.  Teaching skills.  Telling the PLs what to do.  The SPL and PLs are usually just names on paper. One big cub den.

This impacts the youth's overall scouting experience.  The last five or so Eagle boards I've sat on, I've asked "I see you were a patrol leader/senior patrol leader...what are some of your most memorable moments from those duties?"  Sadly, the candidates don't have much to say.  After a few non-verbals signalling uncertainty, they'll collect themselves and do their best to provide a good answer.  But it's obvious they didn't really get to experience fully what it was to be a PL or SPL.  The adults did everything.  A scout who was tried by fire can talk about their experiences, good and bad, with a smile on their face.

So I'm rambling at this point.  But I feel very strongly about it.  The scouts must be allowed to lead.  At meetings and in the field.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by desertrat77

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

Thanks Fred, I definitely agree.  This method is very important to me.  It's how I learned the ropes as PL of the Stampeding Antelopes many moons ago.  Zero classroom training.   I was given plenty of room to succeed or fail.  And wow, some of my failures I remember to this day.

But then we Antelopes hit our stride.  Winning the "best campsite" award and placing second for the stew cook off at a monthly troop camp out (there were five patrols in this troop).  Honor ribbons at camporees.  Good times.

The key elements:

- Formal leadership training for youth was limited to one scout per year in my troop.  Usually the SPL.  He would go to Brownsea II and return with high praise.  Everyone else?  OJT.

- The SPL gave constant feedback and coaching.  And it wasn't always pleasant.  He was the on-scene leader.  He ran troop meetings and outings.  Not an adult.

- Sometimes a JASM strolled by, observing, making a few wry comments, then ambling on.  These guys were Eagles and graduated SPLs.  Rock stars, in our eyes.  We listened and jumped.   We didn't want to look foolish in front of them.

- Adults?  Far away.  In their campsite, or in the SM's office during meetings, rarely heard from unless something really good happened.  Or bad.  "ANTELOPE PATROL LEADER, FRONT AND CENTER!"  I knew I was in for it then. 

Unfortunately, today I rarely see a troop dynamic that even remotely resembles what I just described.  Adults run everything.  Buying groceries.  Directing events.  Teaching skills.  Telling the PLs what to do.  The SPL and PLs are usually just names on paper. One big cub den.

This impacts the youth's overall scouting experience.  The last five or so Eagle boards I've sat on, I've asked "I see you were a patrol leader/senior patrol leader...what are some of your most memorable moments from those duties?"  Sadly, the candidates don't have much to say.  After a few non-verbals signalling uncertainty, they'll collect themselves and do their best to provide a good answer.  But it's obvious they didn't really get to experience fully what it was to be a PL or SPL.  The adults did everything.  A scout who was tried by fire can talk about their experiences, good and bad, with a smile on their face.

So I'm rambling at this point.  But I feel very strongly about it.  The scouts must be allowed to lead.  At meetings and in the field. 

I fully agree.  I'll add ...

-- No following scouts to make sure they check into a merit badge session.  

-- No micromanaging each scout's advancement.  Be there for them, but don't make them be there for you.