Suggest Councils that should be Combined

[desertrat77]

On 4/19/2020 at 8:49 AM, Cburkhardt said:

Instead of readjusting things as we downsized, leadership rolled things forward and overspent on vanity camp projects — even borrowing funds and forcing future volunteer Scouters to inherit the debt.  Well, no more.  That era has ended.  

This is great news.  My longstanding beef with council fundraising is that as a unit and district level scouter, I have very little input in how my dollars are spent.   

I've found from experience that any inquiry to council staff (above DE level) regarding projects or financial matters is not well received.  The boundaries are very clear:  I write checks, the council spends my money, period.

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by desertrat77

[Cburkhardt]

I walked into one of these situations when I became a council president.  I blessed the effort of our very-transparent facility evaluation committee when they recommended closure and sale of an unpopular close-in project that was going to drain finances away from our summer camps and field operations.  I did not receive a single complaint from any current Scouter -- just a few calls from people that had been involved in putting that deal together who thought we needed to "save face" in our relationships with some who had donated toward the project.

The building of camp projects should never be started until there is broad consensus on a need and 100% of the capital raise has been received or credibly pledged.  After we resolved the above situation, a council next door who knew all about it did the very same thing.  The current volunteers there are paying multiple tens of thousands each month in financing a resplendent build-out of a close-in facility that will never be able to pay for itself.  The key volunteer leadership and SE who did it have moved on and I understand they are looking for some after-the-fact donors to rescue them from their predecessor's actions.  I would sell it in a heartbeat and use the saved cash to hire three DEs.    

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Some of the "regulatory" issues are self-inflicted and redundant processes ( note: state health agencies already regulate and inspect camps)  -

"Part of the process of running a Boy Scout Camp is the lengthy and tiresome process of obtaining a National Camping Accreditation Program (NCAP) banner stating the camp is up to National regulations and adheres to all safety guidelines, health regulations and the Camp Staff is properly trained... On Wednesday, June 21^st, 2017, the camp staff participated in an on-site inspection by the NCAP team which went through the hundreds of pages of standards and inspected the camp facilities. Tension was high as the process is no walk in the park, but our staff’s efforts were well rewarded at the end of the day."

https://vhcbsa.org/camp-verdugo-oaks-ncap-accredited/

In 2013, the Boy Scouts of America will begin transitioning to the National Camp Accreditation Program (NCAP) to accredit council-organized camps for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts,and Venturers.

Scouting’s goal in this transition is summarized in the purpose of the NCAP: The purpose of the Boy Scouts of America’s National Camp Accreditation Program is to help councils elevate camps to new levels of excellence in delivering Scouting’s promise to youth. Councils will engage in a rigorous review of camps and properties, continuous improvement, and correction or elimination of substandard practices.This introduction outlines the major elements of the NCAP and the critical role that the council, area, and region will play in raising BSA camping to an ever higher level of performance

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor program/pdf/430-077_wb.pdf

IMO, NCAP should be reconsidered. Maybe downsize scope to just training camp staff. I didn't see the need then for NCAP and have not seen the benefit since. Council volunteers, local business support, and state sanitation regulations have driven camp program improvements here. As for insurance, Council should be free to shop and compare quotes.

Another $0.02,

What NCAP needs to do IMHO is the following:

1. Go back to 3 different standards: Day Camps, Resident Camps, and HA Bases. I know trying to implement stuff for resident camps and HA bases in my one week a year day camp was a major P.IT.B. Does a day camp really need an alumni association, trading post?

2. Get rid of the "one size fits all" aka "let's make all Scout camps look alike" aka "Scout Brand"  for building and structures. Every camp is different, and every state has different standards. We currently have a campsite that is unusable because the NCAP standards will not allow us to rebuild the destroyed structures to their original dimensions. Also we have had some local contractors complain about NCAP guidelines because they are designed for built up camps and not primitive camps. If a simple structure is needed, they have to build it to national's standards, which add to the cost. Or in one case, completely ban building since what national wants built will not comply with local environmental standards.

[PACAN]

The NCAP "Standards" are in a 372 page document - even larger than the G2SS!   There is no way an inspection team can do even a poor job on this in the amount of time they are onsite.  The last time I saw an inspection team they arrived between 9-10 and were gone by 200 after the pennant photo op.  Here's just one example of a standard....Does the camp provide MBs.  Yes?  you pass that one.

Of course if the camp doesn't get a trophy it is likely the end of that camp and the SE is history.

[Eagle94-A1]

9 minutes ago, PACAN said:

The NCAP "Standards" are in a 372 page document - even larger than the G2SS!   There is no way an inspection team can do even a poor job on this in the amount of time they are onsite.  The last time I saw an inspection team they arrived between 9-10 and were gone by 200 after the pennant photo op.  Here's just one example of a standard....Does the camp provide MBs.  Yes?  you pass that one.

Of course if the camp doesn't get a trophy it is likely the end of that camp and the SE is history.

The reason why it is so large is that they combined 3 different sets of guidelines into 1 document. CSDC use to have a separate set of guidelines. Ditto BS resident camp and HA bases. I do not know about CS Resident camp as I was never involved with them. But National created "one book to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them."

I actually staffed a camp that did not meet criteria, but was "conditionally accredited." They did not have a 2nd NCS certified person as PD because the PD had a family emergency at the last minute.

[Mrjeff]

Inspections, in my opinion, are useless formalities. If a real inspection is to be done let a government agency inspect and then be done with it.  Every time I read a BSA publication outlining any standard or rule I can't help wonder how much somebody got paid to come up with this b#%l s@*t.  This is the same with the training material that is constantly re chewed and spit back out of someone else's mouth.  How much is being spent to rehash NYLT, Woodbadge, Basic Outdoor Leadership Skills, Youth Protection, or how many scrappers per person are needed.  Believe me, because have been there, theold "Corner Stone" and Wood Badge of years ago presents the same material as the training we have today, in a different way. Regardless of who says what or what the rules and policies state, people are going to do what they want to do.  The only way to control what people do is by taking away their freedom or their money.  Any other method of control rests on the individual allowing themselves to be controlled.  This is simply reality.  As far as inspections go, with a little work, anything can look good, even if it's rotten on the inside.

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:47 AM, desertrat77 said:

This is great news.  My longstanding beef with council fundraising is that as a unit and district level scouter, I have very little input in how my dollars are spent.   

I've found from experience that any inquiry to council staff (above DE level) regarding projects or financial matters is not well received.  The boundaries are very clear:  I write checks, the council spends my money, period.

 

I have gotten myself designated as PNG (persona non grata) in our council for asking too many questions, "disrupting" the money trail, and informing folks about how the money is spent from public documents like the IRS Form 990 (which may have put a dent in FOS).  Removed from District Committee, removed from Council committees, removed from council training team, ostracized by many...  And all without so much as a phone call from anyone at the council saying, "We'd like to discuss this with you before we take any adverse action."  Unethical, in my book.

You do find out who your friends are when such things happen...

[carebear3895]

25 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I have gotten myself designated as PNG (persona non grata) in our council for asking too many questions, "disrupting" the money trail, and informing folks about how the money is spent from public documents like the IRS Form 990 (which may have put a dent in FOS).  Removed from District Committee, removed from Council committees, removed from council training team, ostracized by many...  And all without so much as a phone call from anyone at the council saying, "We'd like to discuss this with you before we take any adverse action."  Unethical, in my book.

You do find out who your friends are when such things happen...

No offense, but I feel like a lot more went on here than "asked too many questions". 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Not much more...our council maintains a "blacklist"

You're the professional...why would a council do such a thing? 

[MikeS72]

On 4/20/2020 at 2:26 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I actually staffed a camp that did not meet criteria, but was "conditionally accredited." They did not have a 2nd NCS certified person as PD because the PD had a family emergency at the last minute.

There is a procedure for certain waivers, which may end up being used this year as with all the covid related cancellations our council safety weekend, which is where we would provide first aid training, shooting sports certifications for CSDC, etc. went by the wayside.  We are hoping to be able to get another one in before summer, but who knows what will happen as we go forward.

[jpb6583]

5 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

No offense, but I feel like a lot more went on here than "asked too many questions". 

As a professional scouter you know good and well that these things happen all the time. There are too many people in positions at the council level that run it as their own personal fiefdom. And, too many as well, that either go along with or make excuses for it.

[Eagle94-A1]

Those list may not be written down, but they exist. One long time volunteer has been in semi-retirement visiting the grandkids a lot. He's been involved at the district, council, and at point national, level since the early 1960s. But he raised a lot of questions about things over the years, and has been on the unoffical list for years. He finally got the SIlver Beaver this yeart . Funny thing is, everyone thoughty he had it already.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Those list may not be written down, but they exist. One long time volunteer has been in semi-retirement visiting the grandkids a lot. He's been involved at the district, council, and at point national, level since the early 1960s. But he raised a lot of questions about things over the years, and has been on the unoffical list for years. He finally got the SIlver Beaver this yeart . Funny thing is, everyone thoughty he had it already.

 

Eagle,

DAM form, item 4. says

"The nominee’s attitude toward and cooperation with the district and/or council is to be taken into consideration."

In our council, that equates to FOS and other donations.  Little to do with actual service to Scouting.  Same for SIlver Beaver.  Pay to play...

One day, I'll shed my illusions and realize, donations = service.

[RememberSchiff]

On 4/20/2020 at 2:51 PM, Mrjeff said:

Inspections, in my opinion, are useless formalities. If a real inspection is to be done let a government agency inspect and then be done with it.  Every time I read a BSA publication outlining any standard or rule I can't help wonder how much somebody got paid to come up with this b#%l s@*t.  This is the same with the training material that is constantly re chewed and spit back out of someone else's mouth.  How much is being spent to rehash NYLT, Woodbadge, Basic Outdoor Leadership Skills, Youth Protection, or how many scrappers per person are needed.  Believe me, because have been there, theold "Corner Stone" and Wood Badge of years ago presents the same material as the training we have today, in a different way. Regardless of who says what or what the rules and policies state, people are going to do what they want to do.  The only way to control what people do is by taking away their freedom or their money.  Any other method of control rests on the individual allowing themselves to be controlled.  This is simply reality.  As far as inspections go, with a little work, anything can look good, even if it's rotten on the inside.

Camp Directors – are you ready to turn in your Declaration of Readiness?  Due to the fluid nature of the COVID-19 pandemic, camp can submit their Declaration of Readiness 30 days prior to the start of their camping operation.

  Over 450 properties and programs are assessed by area assessment teams each year to make certain that they are meeting the National Camp Accreditation Program (NCAP) standards of operation.  These standards set the minimum requirements that a council must achieve to use the BSA Brand for these camps. 

Camps will be operating with special COVID-19 processes that everyone is required to do prior to coming into camp.  Camp Directors need to inform the Assessment Team Leader of these processes so that they know what is required, such as medical screening, mask required, gloves, etc.

....

Check out Circular 14 for any updates

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/trail-to-adventure/are-you-ready-for-your-camp-assessment/

[MattR]

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Check out Circular 14 for any updates

404 Not Found.

Maybe someone changed their mind.