Chapter 11 announced

[ThenNow]

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

does anyone in their right mind think any judge will say yep, sounds good to me.  I expect the BSA will be hammered by the court.

Especially this judge. She doesn't play, is very sober-minded and I believe she sincerely grasps the gravity of what is before her. 

[CynicalScouter]

10 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

National BSA is offering $220M for 85,000 victims.  Really, does anyone in their right mind think any judge will say yep, sounds good to me.  I expect the BSA will be hammered by the court.

Even been amazingly charitable here. $220M from National + $300M from councils = $520M. Then let's say only 25% of the 95,000 claims are deemed valid. That's 23,750 claims vs. $520M. $21,894 per claim. That's the most charitable.

But let's go crazy here. Let's say BSA is entirely liquidated. HA bases. HQ. Everything up to and including the office furniture at HQ. $1 billion from National, $300 million from councils. You are still with a mere 23,750 claims looking at only $54,736.

There's just no way the math works on this. where you get to 66% of the class UNLESS

a) Council assets are tossed in MASSIVELY.

b) there are enough victims who are ready to say "I don't want to kill off BSA, therefore I'll take a pittance."

Like I said, this is different than I felt 48 hours ago. But I just don't see it surviving now.

Edited March 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

17 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

USA Gymnastics offered $215M for 500 sex abuse and the survivors said not enough. 

By the way: the judge is still not accepted their plan from August 2020 and the legal fees just keep on running up.

https://www.ocregister.com/2021/01/29/usa-gymnastics-is-running-up-millions-in-legal-fees-while-in-bankruptcy/

And not only did that plan not get the 66% needed, it was rejected by at least 512 out of 517. It may have gotten to 100% by the time all was said and done.

Edited March 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

 I believe my Troop is safe.  I've seen multiple leaders within my Troop ensure YPT rules are being followed, even on zoom calls and emails.  I see this at many other Troops as well.  However, I believe there are likely units out there that may not follow YPT closely. 

This is a question borne both out of curiosity and my interest in the health and safety of kids.

Are there "model" structures or relationships between the various entities that can be put forward as exemplars? I'm sure some of you have it dialed in to a science. This is how it's done in other context with great success. To borrow from the franchise discussion, this is why and how the good ones succeed wildly: strict adherence to replication. Even as I say that it dawns that as volunteer driven it lacks financial incentive, effectively downgrading the engine of the model. The V12 becomes a Volt. It was a thought. "Here is what works and this is how to do it, if you manage to pull it off."

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

I believe there are likely units out there that may not follow YPT closely. 

For sure.  I, for one, don't particularly care if scouts play laser tag.  BSA is not facing financial and PR oblivion because some scout leaders choose to disregard the rules and let the boys play laser tag.

Edited March 2, 2021 by David CO

[Eagle1993]

Just now, David CO said:

For sure.  I, for one, don't particularly care if scouts play laser tag.

Agreed ... and don't get me or my Troop started on dodge ball.  However, I do care if units are not following the barriers to abuse aspects of YPT and I expect some are not carefully following those.

[David CO]

Just now, Eagle1993 said:

Agreed ... and don't get me or my Troop started on dodge ball.  

Actually, I would like to get you and your scouts started on dodge ball.  If we should somehow meet in a campground someday, my unit would very much enjoy joining you for a game.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

This is a question borne both out of curiosity and my interest in the health and safety of kids.

Are there "model" structures or relationships between the various entities that can be put forward as exemplars? I'm sure some of you have it dialed in to a science. This is how it's done in other context with great success. To borrow from the franchise discussion, this is why and how the good ones succeed wildly: strict adherence to replication. Even as I say that it dawns that as volunteer driven it lacks financial incentive, effectively downgrading the engine of the model. The V12 becomes a Volt. It was a thought. "Here is what works and this is how to do it, if you manage to pull it off."

Every unit has its own culture...

In the Air Force, every headquarters has a Standardization and Evaluation section.  All flight crewmembers must take periodic "checkrides" to ensure adherence to flight and safety standards.  No current checkride?  You are grounded.  When you take a checkride, there is a write up of your performance.  If any areas are substandard, there is prescribed corrective action which must be followed.

I believe the Commissioner Corps was supposed to perform this sort of function.  But, I have never seen any forcing function for units to comply with all of the BSA standards out there.  It is totally up to the goodwill and integrity of the volunteers to ensure compliance.  So, some units begin doing things that are outright forbidden; adults with alcohol on trips, fireworks, inappropriate adult supervision, hazing, ignoring safety standards for aquatics activities, etc.)

Basically, if something happens, then the adults get sued for negligence or something else.  In most cases, I have heard of BSA offering settlements for cases.  Anyone have real stories to share of adults being held to account?

Here's a case of a lightning death:

https://www.poconorecord.com/article/20060609/NEWS/606090357

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bsrk6zqXN68J:https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jun-16-na-scouts16-story.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

And another lightning:

https://etvnews.com/rayborn-boy-scouts-reach-settlement-in-wrongful-death-suit/

And a fall (ongoing case??):

https://www.opb.org/news/article/corvallis-mother-sues-boy-scouts-of-america-for-sons-death-during-camping-trip/

 

 

[ThenNow]

43 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

... and don't get me or my Troop started on dodge ball. 

Are you implying that dodge ball is now verboten? I can’t imagine my early days of Scouting without welts on my face and body at the end of of each Monday night. The older guys who could whip it like that red ball was coming off a jai alai cesta were brutal. 

[TAHAWK]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I read the updated Chapter 11 statement.  This appears to be National BSA's offer.  My guess is that they think they can get at least $300M from local councils based on internal discussions; however, they don't have or are not ready to share the details yet.  Eventually, you'll probably see a council by council summary including their assets, camps, etc. that make up the $300M+.

The insurance companies are treated separately; however, there are 40+ pages that outline each insurance policy by council by date range.  I found it odd that several policies have council listed as unknown (N/A).  Essentially, the trust can sue the insurance companies and collect what they can as can our non sex abuse claimants.

The liability of the insurance companies arises out of the contracts of insurance.  They have no liability in tort.

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

BSA National is simply saying that they will attempt to get Councils to "voluntarily" pay in.

 

I had a separate question.  I believe it has been answered.

[Eagle94-A1]

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Are you implying that dodge ball is now verboten? I can’t imagine my early days of Scouting without welts on my face and body at the end of of each Monday night. The older guys who could whip it like that red ball was coming off a jai alai cesta were brutal. 

Since 2018 or 19, dodgeball is now banned. In fact at one point, National stated in the FAQ that Dodgeball had never been an approved Scouting Activity. It took a while, but they finally corrected the FAQ. Dodgeball has been an approved game since as early as 1929 when the  3rd. Edition SMHB listed it as a recommended game. Even after it was banned in the Guide to Safe Scouting, you could still find it on the BSA's website as a game to play at troop meetings.

Next game to get banned will probably be GAGA Ball. National has already said they were looking into it.

[TAHAWK]

Then there is (was?) Red Rover.   😱

[ThenNow]

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Since 2018 or 19, dodgeball is now banned

I just had a moment of silence for dodge ball. I will eventually recover from the loss. Cards and flowers not necessary.

[ThenNow]

What news of that humiliation and torture exercise masquerading as a game of quickness and hand-eye coordination? I refer to the thing where you hold your hands above the other guy’s and try to move them before he slaps them silly? I was never very advanced at that, but did move beyond looking like I was wearing red mittens in all seasons.