Chapter 11 announced

[elitts]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

The average payout is looking at $6000 per victim. At $150 a session, that's 40 sessions. Not even 1 year worth of weekly therapy. So, not really no.

Well, no.  The average contribution from the BSA and the Councils was calculated at about $6000 per victim.  The actual payouts would include funds from the insurance companies that would increase that amount drastically.

[RememberSchiff]

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Regarding properties, etc ... scouting doesn't really need them.

Our current youth membership (~1.2M) is the same as 1937 which is before Philmont, our first HA, was donated to scouts by Waite Philips the following year.

[Eagle1993]

6 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Regarding costs ... I am only pointing out that the rhetoric does not match the math.

To be honest, I expect the cost of therapy to rise in proportion to the size of the settlement. Victims might actually get less support if they are awarded more.

Each person, on average, will get $6K out of this settlement.  I think for most victims that require therapy, $6K is nothing.   I also don't think psychologists change their hourly rate based upon BSA settlement.  Nor do I think the need of therapy varies based upon the settlement amount.   I'm a bit confused as your statements here ... 

[ThenNow]

10 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I expect the cost of therapy to rise in proportion to the size of the settlement. Victims might actually get less support if they are awarded more.

I have no clue what this either means or implies. 

[elitts]

4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Each person, on average, will get $6K out of this settlement.  I think for most victims that require therapy, $6K is nothing.   I also don't think psychologists change their hourly rate based upon BSA settlement.  Nor do I think the need of therapy varies based upon the settlement amount.   I'm a bit confused as your statements here ... 

That's not what the information says; it doesn't address the amount per person of the awards, it only addresses the amount being proposed as a contribution from the BSA and Councils.  The lion's share of the payouts was always going to come from the insurance companies and that hasn't changed.

[Eagle1993]

3 minutes ago, elitts said:

Well, no.  The average contribution from the BSA and the Councils was calculated at about $6000 per victim.  The actual payouts would include funds from the insurance companies that would increase that amount drastically.

The average portion I have seen from Catholic Church settlements is the Church pays out 30 - 50% of the final settlement and insurance covers the rest.  The Church has agreed to help sue insurance companies to cover the gap.

So ... BSA $6K ... that means final settlement would be $12 - $18K.  That is before legal fees OR the cost of actually distributing the funds to victims (as that cost is also funded by the settlement trust).  

FYI  ... here is a summary of settlements from the Catholic Church.  The lowest payment I could find was Milwaukee at $63K per victim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

[Eagle1993]

This is what the Girl Scouts would get:

essentially, the right to sue BSA's insurance companies or $50,000.  That is 10,000 boxes of cookies.  

"Allowed Non-Abuse Litigation Claim from (i) available Insurance Coverage or the proceeds of any insurance policy of the Debtors, (ii) applicable proceeds of any Insurance Settlement Agreements, and (iii) co-liable non-debtors (if any) or their insurance coverage. Solely to the extent that the holder of an Allowed NonAbuse Litigation Claim fails to recover in full from the foregoing sources on account of such Allowed Claim after exhausting its remedies in respect thereof, such holder may elect to have the unsatisfied portion of its Allowed Claim treated as an Allowed Convenience Claim and receive cash in an amount equal to the lesser of (a) the amount of the unsatisfied portion of the Allowed Non-Abuse Litigation Claim and (b) $50,000."

Edited March 2, 2021 by Eagle1993
added snarky comment about cookies

[Eagle1993]

23 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Our current youth membership (~1.2M) is the same as 1937 which is before Philmont, our first HA, was donated to scouts by Waite Philips the following year.

I think what we need is local camp(s), the program, great volunteers, training and enough professional scouters to ensure things are running well.  I would love to keep the HA bases, especially Philmont, but I don't think they are needed.  You can do HA without BSA bases.  Its tough to do scouting without local camp(s).

[qwazse]

35 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I have no clue what this either means or implies. 

@ThenNow, the evolution of therapy is such that therapists determine that patients need more of it for refractory conditions. This, by the way, makes it nearly impossible for someone to complete certain kinds of therapy (e.g., strategies that require the patient participate with a family member twice a week for a couple of months are simply inaccessible to someone whose minimum wage job(s) with spartan benefits has inflexible hours). So, if the settlement is quite large, we may find that a victim of a scoutmaster has access to an expansive therapy while a victim of a family member -- especially from an underprivileged family -- gets limited treatment. From a social science perspective, it will provide a natural experiment into what works and what doesn't in a large population. From a social justice and health economy perspective it could have unforeseen effects.

Edited March 2, 2021 by qwazse

[elitts]

34 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

The average portion I have seen from Catholic Church settlements is the Church pays out 30 - 50% of the final settlement and insurance covers the rest.  The Church has agreed to help sue insurance companies to cover the gap.

So ... BSA $6K ... that means final settlement would be $12 - $18K.  That is before legal fees OR the cost of actually distributing the funds to victims (as that cost is also funded by the settlement trust).  

FYI  ... here is a summary of settlements from the Catholic Church.  The lowest payment I could find was Milwaukee at $63K per victim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Perhaps, but as I've mentioned before, the Catholic Church settlements are just not a reasonable comparison for the issue with the BSA.  Other than the type of assaults on children being the same, there are orders of magnitude in difference between what the Church did and what the BSA did; so thinking the results would be similar just doesn't seem realistic.  While I can't say I'm an expert in trial law involving liability insurance, it most cases I've ever heard of, the liability of the insured doesn't start until after the damages exceed the policy limits.

[CynicalScouter]

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

From my reading, National holds a reversionary interest in LC assets upon revocation or relinquishment of Charter.

I read it the same way

When I read the National Charter and Bylaws: the Council Charters are subject to review by National. National reserves the right to revoke at will.

When I read the Rules and Regulations: Council or Unit Assets Upon Dissolution

Quote

Consistent with the Bylaws, in the event of the dissolution of a council or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the Executive Committee may,  at  its  option,  authorize  the  National  Council  to  assume  charge  of  the  affairs  of  the  council  and  continue  operation  pending reorganization or re-establishment of the council or wind up the business of the council. All funds and property in the possession or control of such council must be applied to the payment of the council’s obligations. Any surplus funds or property may thereafter be administered as deemed to be in the best interest of Scouting

I think this happy and polite fiction that the Councils are that separated from National is just that, a polite fiction that is about to get squashed. The Councils may have a high amount of autonomy, but that isn't going to cut it.

Like I said, I've moved from the "BSA National will survive" camp to "They are done, let's see if the councils can form some kind of confederation as some WOSM members in Europe do."

[CynicalScouter]

59 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Regarding properties, etc ... scouting doesn't really need them. But, I can foresee a future in which independent property owners could be sued if they allowed a troop with an abuser to camp on their land.

That's why a LOT of COs stopped being COs and converted to a rental-agreement-only system. The entire Diocese of Dallas, for example, threw the BSA out and would only agree to room-rental agreements.

[mrjohns2]

7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

When I read the National Charter and Bylaws: the Council Charters are subject to review by National. National reserves the right to revoke at will.

It is my understanding that is true for any franchise system. McDonalds can come and shut you down at will. 

[Eagle1993]

3 minutes ago, elitts said:

 While I can't say I'm an expert in trial law involving liability insurance, it most cases I've ever heard of, the liability of the insured doesn't start until after the damages exceed the policy limits.

It will be interesting to see the insurance payout (when that comes after 4-5 years of litigation).  Typically insurance has 2 limits (deductible & max liability).  Insurance will never cover more than the liability limit and that is mentioned frequently in the filing.

Note that the BSA already states there are liability limits ... so payouts cannot exceed those.  In addition, the debtor and POST Bankruptcy BSA, reserve the rights to sue their insurance agency to get funds SEPERATE from those from the settlement trust.  They specifically add that the settlement trust can try to obtain funds from BSA insurance providers but they cannot disrupt or negotiate changes that would result in the BSA not obtaining funds for non abuse victims (which would fall under the same limits of liability).

So ... essentially the insurance pot of money will be split between non abuse and abuse claims and that is a fixed pot of money not to exceed the limits of liability.  At least that is the way I read the clause below.

"the right of the Debtors and Reorganized BSA (and any other named or additional insureds under such Specified Insurance Policy) are expressly reserved to (a) tender any Insured Non-Abuse Claims to the Specified Insurance Policies and (b) access the limits of liability of the Specified Insurance Policies to settle or otherwise resolve Insured Non-Abuse Claims. Further, the Settlement Trust cannot settle, compromise, or otherwise resolve any rights, duties, or obligations under the Specified Insurance Policies without the express written consent and approval of the Debtors or Reorganized BSA, as applicable, and the Creditors’ Committee, prior to its dissolution. Nonetheless, the Settlement Trust shall have the same rights, if any, as the Protected Parties with respect to any Specified Insurance Policy insofar as the Settlement Trust may (i) tender Abuse Claims to the Specified Insurance Policies and (ii) access the limits of liability of the Specified Insurance Policies to pay Abuse Claims pursuant to the Trust Distribution Procedures.

[ThenNow]

43 minutes ago, qwazse said:

if the settlement is quite large, we may find that a victim of a scoutmaster has access to an expansive therapy while a victim of a family member -- especially a from an underprivileged family -- gets limited treatment.

I understand the point. I know a good deal about therapy and treatment modalities to address dual diagnoses and Complex PTSD stemming from child sexual abuse, with all the derivative circles of impact (family, and etc.). I just think you're running a rabbit trail, based solely on the point made by one survivor to the effect that $6000 won't even cover his therapy. That was used to highlight the inadequacy of the BSA's portion of a contribution to the Victims Compensation Trust.

For most of us, though I don't presume to speak for 10's of thousands of men, we are not looking to specifically pay for therapy, whether basic, enhanced, evolved or otherwise. We are hoping to receive compensation that acknowledges what we have suffered. In part, that is financial damage so compensatory "damages" are implied. The financial impact to me has been enormous. In larger part, it is about the life and soul impacts, which I addressed at length months ago. Though rebuffed that any such is ephemeral and too amorphous to be worthy of full recompense, I assert it again, believing it is a primary motive for many of us. (Reference my posts on "soul murder" and "identity assassination.")

Edited March 2, 2021 by ThenNow