Chapter 11 announced

[ParkMan]

32 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

It had nothing to do with trying to convince you, a den mother, a Scout or anyone else. I don't believe that's what I've been doing or attempted to do here. I wanted to offer a respectful and thoughtful response from my experience. You raised great points in both posts and I wanted to ponder and engage the various elements.

I think that's the best we can hope for here.  Share our own views on these topics and in the process be enriched from each other.

I've welcomed your comments on this topic - in fact, I had not seen the website you referenced before.  I also think that as an abuse victim you bring a different perspective to the discussion here that is very welcome.

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

It had nothing to do with trying to convince you, a den mother, a Scout or anyone else. I don't believe that's what I've been doing or attempted to do here. I wanted to offer a respectful and thoughtful response from my experience. You raised great points in both posts and I wanted to ponder and engage the various elements.

I believe you meant it to read well on my end, but I can't say it did. Rather harsh, but I am the outlier here and, at times, that is clear. I was aware of when I started to post and take it for what it is. Happy to take my ball and jax and leave the playground.

Please stay with our campfire.

[DavidLeeLambert]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

But what people see now is "my kid's CO refuses to recharter because they are scared of being sued into oblivion," FORGET that even if the CO removed the Troop in 2021, they are STILL (possibly) liable for abuse in 1975.

Or if some CO dropped its charter in 1980, it could still be on the hook for abuse that occurred in 1975.

One bad-case (I can imagine worse) scenario I can imagine goes as follows:

• BSA (national) goes into Chapter 7, takes all the councils with it. Between pension liabilities, general secured debt, and the rock-bottom prices that most camp property will fetch when hundreds of camps are all offered at liquidation sales at the same time, the amount available to unsecured creditors (including all the abuse claimants) is $100MM or less. That means $1000 or less to each self-filing abuse claimant, and $600 less expenses to each represented abuse claimant.
• But the bankruptcy assigns some larger nominal value, say $200,000 or $1,000,000, to each abuse claim. And while wrapping up the Chapter 7 case, the entire IVF is made public, along with the list of every CO that was ever registered, and the personnel file of every council, and the identity of every organization that ever rented to or did business with a Council.
• Now various attorneys go after the COs, and anyone else who ever had any relationship with BSA. Every Catholic diocese, and hundreds of Methodist churches, and the LDS church, and various other churches, and several fraternal organizations, and a lot of local governments that were associated with Explorer posts... each gets named in a class-action lawsuit alleging joint and several liability for $950 billion, or some significant fraction thereof.
• Now there's a glut of former places of worship up for sale, and scattered municipal bankruptcies.

But speaking of Statute of Limitations law changes, I note that the Future Claimants' Representative's bill for January [D.I.2257] includes line items such as the following:

• "Review statute of limitations analysis"
• "Teleconference with YCST team re: follow-up research on statute of limitations"
• "Research re: constitutional amendment requirements for reopening statutes of limitations"
• "Additional legal research and chart updates re: statute of limitations and constitutionality of window legislation in various states"
• "Research constitutionality of revival windows for claims with expired statutes of limitations in Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, and Maine"

[CynicalScouter]

15 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

along with the list of every CO that was ever registered, and the personnel file of every council, and the identity of every organization that ever rented to or did business with a Council.

That has already been handed over. They know all the COs. They know all the Councils. They know it all.

One of the reasons why every Methodist church filed a claim against BSA is that they plan on trying to dump all liability on BSA.

But yes, the Kosnoff et al crew want BSA, then the Councils, then the COs.

They want to lay waste to everything.

[CynicalScouter]

20 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

But speaking of Statute of Limitations law changes, I note that the Future Claimants' Representative's bill for January [D.I.2257] includes line items such as the following:

Back in early January my Council Key-3 had a Council-status Zoom open house.

One thing mentioned was this. That a "formula" or "algorithm" was being put together for Councils to determine how much they had to pay.

One of the variables: likelihood of the state will reopen the SOL. If there little to no probably that it will happen, that council will presumably pay less.

[jr56]

Is there any such thing existing anymore, like COMMON SENSE.

Something similar to what happened to Penn State, when the NCAA came to their senses and realized all their penalties were just hurting innocent people who had no connection to the university when that all went down.

Hope these lawyers are proud of themselves after doing away with the BSA.

 

 

[CynicalScouter]

7 minutes ago, jr56 said:

Hope these lawyers are proud of themselves after doing away with the BSA.

This is the problem. I truly think that there a lawyers who simply want to get as much money as they can from BSA without killing it. But that's tricky: how much can you bleed out an organization before you kill it?

Then there's another crew (Kosnoff) that want BSA dead and are fine with that.

I still remain convinced that BSA National walks away from this an empty shell with little to no assets. And in 3-5 years BSA might be dead for good because it got bled out too much.

Edited February 25, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[yknot]

13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

This is the problem. I truly think that there a lawyers who simply want to get as much money as they can from BSA without killing it. But that's tricky: how much can you bleed out an organization before you kill it?

Then there's another crew (Kosnoff) that want BSA dead and are fine with that.

I still remain convinced that BSA National walks away from this an empty shell with little to no assets. And in 3-5 years BSA might be dead for good because it got bled out too much.

The problem is this is war. Stop fussing about how fair or unfair it is, or how we used to do things, or parsing out the legal angles and simply figure out how to win it. No one at BSA is a war time leader. 

[CynicalScouter]

12 minutes ago, yknot said:

No one at BSA is a war time leader. 

And what exactly does "war" look like? What does a "win" look like?

Let's game that out.

1) BSA, through I don't know let's say Mosby, declares that this bankruptcy is a "war" of BSA vs. the victims (or maybe just the victim's lawyers?)

2) He declares, in no uncertain terms, BSA will...what exactly? Refuse to negotiate or continue with mediation? Withdraw the bankruptcy petition and dare the (thousands) of plaintiffs to sue in court?

3) What does that "win" BSA? A public relations nightmare ("BSA declares war on victims."). A decade, if not more, of lawsuits against National + every Council and CO.

It is one thing to demand "War". To demand BSA "Win".

Please define the terms.

[David CO]

34 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I truly think that there a lawyers who simply want to get as much money as they can from BSA without killing it. But that's tricky: how much can you bleed out an organization before you kill it?

Just like the scout executives.  They have been wrestling with that question for years.

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

Just like the scout executives. 

And just what the heck does THAT mean?

That Scout Executives are trying to bleed BSA? Their Councils?

[yknot]

49 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And what exactly does "war" look like? What does a "win" look like?

Let's game that out.

1) BSA, through I don't know let's say Mosby, declares that this bankruptcy is a "war" of BSA vs. the victims (or maybe just the victim's lawyers?)

2) He declares, in no uncertain terms, BSA will...what exactly? Refuse to negotiate or continue with mediation? Withdraw the bankruptcy petition and dare the (thousands) of plaintiffs to sue in court?

3) What does that "win" BSA? A public relations nightmare ("BSA declares war on victims."). A decade, if not more, of lawsuits against National + every Council and CO.

It is one thing to demand "War". To demand BSA "Win".

Please define the terms.

War looks like leadership. And that's how you win. 

You mention Mosby. Perfect. Where is our leader? 

BSA named its reorg ruminations The Churchill Project. What leadership skill did its namesake wield better than any other WWII leader? Words. He communicated, he inspired, he motivated. Where is Mosby? Where is his appeal to the troops to fight the good fight? It has nothing to do with waging war on victims. It's simply about reminding everyone what is good about scouting and why we need to do our best at the unit level to keep it going. On this he has been virtually silent.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by yknot

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

The problem is this is war. Stop fussing about how fair or unfair it is, or how we used to do things, or parsing out the legal angles and simply figure out how to win it. No one at BSA is a war time leader. 

 

46 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And what exactly does "war" look like? What does a "win" look like?

Let's game that out.

1) BSA, through I don't know let's say Mosby, declares that this bankruptcy is a "war" of BSA vs. the victims (or maybe just the victim's lawyers?)

2) He declares, in no uncertain terms, BSA will...what exactly? Refuse to negotiate or continue with mediation? Withdraw the bankruptcy petition and dare the (thousands) of plaintiffs to sue in court?

3) What does that "win" BSA? A public relations nightmare ("BSA declares war on victims."). A decade, if not more, of lawsuits against National + every Council and CO.

It is one thing to demand "War". To demand BSA "Win".

Please define the terms.

I think @yknot is spot on.

A war leader would find a way to get ahead of the public relations conversation here.  The BSA doesn't win by being anti-victims. 

The BSA could win by getting out ahead and changing the conversation.  Find a way to make this a discussion about the value of investing in the kids of today.  Find a way to make this a discussion about how lawyers are playing both the victims and the youth of today to line their pockets.  Get the BSA out in front of the public relations message.

Were I Mosby, first thing I would have done is write the biggest check - one so big I had to beg from donors to pay for it.  Hire the strongest, most aggressive PR firm in the country.  Change the narrative.  

I'm reminded of the quote from the movie The Untouchables "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight."  The BSA hasn't learned that.

[yknot]

15 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

 

I think @yknot is spot on.

A war leader would find a way to get ahead of the public relations conversation here.  The BSA doesn't win by being anti-victims. 

The BSA could win by getting out ahead and changing the conversation.  Find a way to make this a discussion about the value of investing in the kids of today.  Find a way to make this a discussion about how lawyers are playing both the victims and the youth of today to line their pockets.  Get the BSA out in front of the public relations message.

Were I Mosby, first thing I would have done is write the biggest check - one so big I had to beg from donors to pay for it.  Hire the strongest, most aggressive PR firm in the country.  Change the narrative.  

I'm reminded of the quote from the movie The Untouchables "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight."  The BSA hasn't learned that.

Yes, yes and yes. We are getting the pants beaten off of us by more sophisticated operators. We have got to learn how to chart our own course.  

[CynicalScouter]

42 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Find a way to make this a discussion about how lawyers are playing both the victims and the youth of today to line their pockets. 

Were I Mosby, first thing I would have done is write the biggest check - one so big I had to beg from donors to pay for it.  Hire the strongest, most aggressive PR firm in the country.  Change the narrative.  

Not going to happen. A portion of this process is a court ordered (or a least encouraged, I forget which) mediation. There is precisely 0% chance BSA's lawyers are going to sign off on a PR campaign that targets the lawyers for the other side.

EDIT: One more point. BSA is in bankruptcy. All expenditures over a certain amount have to be approved by the court. A massive $$$ PR campaign the purpose of which is to trash opposing counsel will never, ever be approved by the court.

Not only would it possibly violate the mediation plan/agreement, it would absolutely poison any possibility of a settlement. What might make sense from a PR perspective is absolutely the wrong legal strategy.

I would suspect that the reason BSA has been utterly silent is because their lawyers are telling them the two cardinal rules of clients (for both criminal side and civil).

1) Shut up.

2) Keep shutting up.

Mosby did push a statement on February 1 A Look at Our History and Our Future.  But otherwise, he is not about to start a campaign against opposing counsel. Why? Because it isn't going to change the legal terrain one bit AND could make a settlement LESS likely.

It is also absolutely going to be spun as "BSA attacking victims."

As for the "big PR check" what was said last year and  was repeated recently in my Council was that the minute a bankruptcy plan was agreed to, there was going to be a "massive" "rebranding" campaign. But until that bankruptcy plan is done and BSA emerges from bankruptcy, nothing was going to happen.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by CynicalScouter