fred8033 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 hours ago, mrjohns2 said: I also can't see a great reason for the chartered org relationship in the first place. I wonder if this has a lot to do with the LDS church involvement. It was perfect for them as it allowed Scouts to be that extension of the church. They owned the equipment, they choose the leaders, they chartered the unit. For nearly every other organization, it may not make much sense. I guess I could see a church saying "hey, we want a neat youth group that goes camping, let's do Scouts BSA!" That is pretty far fetched, though. IMHO, as long as I've been involved, the charter partner model was BSA finding a way to market scouting, extend the program and create more scouting volunteers. It was never about quality control or vetting leaders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Boy Scouts can't keep $667 million off the table, victims' group says Quote The $667 million in dispute includes cash, general investment funds, donor pledges, and three camps called "high adventure facilities," among other assets and funds. The victims' committee is seeking a declaratory judgment from the bankruptcy court deeming those assets available to satisfy the victims' claims. The Boy Scouts addressed the high adventure facilities in its statement as well, saying they "allow Scouts to experience the truest embodiment of the BSA's mission through outdoor activities, educational programs and leadership training." The document mentioned in the article. They are also looking to liquidate Order of the Arrow. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/868466_1913.pdf Quote PROPERTY OF THE DEBTORS WHICH THE DEBTORS CLAIM IS NOT PROPERTY OF THE ESTATE A. Bank Account Cash B. The LC Collateral ("The Debtors also contend that $62,773,574.00 identified in Exhibit B as “Restricted Cash – LC Collateral (JPM) (the “LC Collateral”) constitutes restricted cash.") C. Investments 1. General Investment Funds 2. Order of the Arrow D. High Adventure Facilities E. Donor Restricted Pledges Receivable F. Miscellaneous Summit Assets G. Gift Annuity and Pooled Income Investments H. Note Receivable From Arrow WV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjohns2 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 11 hours ago, CynicalScouter said: They are also looking to liquidate Order of the Arrow. Well, the Order of the Arrow Endowment Fund which was started at the end of 1978. The claim is that everything was basically co-mingled with no records of deposits and withdrawals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vol_scouter Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 So the TCC is asking for essentially the entire BSA to be placed into a trust. Can any of the attorneys comment on whether this is the usual procedure and that there is little expectation of success in all contentions or whether this is unusual and means that they believe that they have a high likelihood of success which would eliminate the BSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) Arizona man says LDS Church threatened expulsion for abuse report Quote An Arizona man is alleging he was sexually abused as a Boy Scout and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints threatened ex-communication when he tried to report it 45 years ago. Attorneys for the man announced a lawsuit Thursday in Maricopa County Superior Court in Phoenix against the church, the Grand Canyon Council of the Boy Scouts of America, a Scoutmaster, a Scout and church leader and Bishop Floyd Dean Davis. “The level of negligence in our plaintiff’s life is nothing other than tragic, and we are committed to securing justice on his behalf,” Stephan D. Blandin, of Romanucci & Blandin law firm, said in a statement. So, I pulled the case from the court. Even though the plaintiff is a John Doe, I an not going to link to the case. I will simply note the following 1) The defendants include both the The Corporation Of The President Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints and The Corporation Of The Presiding Bishop Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints. They are going after the whole organization. 2) The local Bishop is named in his person/personal capacity. 3) The local council is named. 4) The SM is named. He is apparently still alive and is a registered sex offender. What does this mean? If I had to read tea leaves, I'd bet that a) National is not going to have enough money to satisfy claimants. b) Neither will the insurance companies. c) Neither will the Councils. That means... d) COs are going on the table. Edited January 17, 2021 by CynicalScouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) My Council Key-3 hosted a annual review/update. While much of the focus was Council ops, the bankruptcy came up. The Key-3 were somewhat limited in terms of what they could say, but the broad strokes: 1) At least SOME of the plaintiffs lawyers "want us [BSA] dead." That message is coming through loud and clear 2) National's lawyers and the Committee of Councils have put liquidation(s) on the table as a warning/threat and given the TCC/Plaintiff's lawyers two options Option 1: TCC/Plaintiff's lawyers take a restructuring deal that does NOT result in the liquidation/death of BSA and that allows BSA to continue to operate/function. Option 2: TCC/Plaintiff's lawyers reject the restructuring deal. National will ask for this to convert to liquidation and plan on the Congressional Charter will allow BSA to survive with $0 assets. A complete restart. Under bankruptcy law, the BSA pension/pension holders go to the top of the list of creditors in the event of a liquidation. Once the pension is fully funded, plaintiffs attorneys get the scraps which won't be much. Edited January 17, 2021 by CynicalScouter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnmule20 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 12 hours ago, CynicalScouter said: National will ask for this to convert to liquidation Liquidate National only or all of the BSA (Councils, high adventure, OA, etc)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, tnmule20 said: Liquidate National only or all of the BSA (Councils, high adventure, OA, etc)? The threat was "National" because of the pension factor. As for HA, OA, Councils, they simply said "National" so how broad that is wasn't clear and the Key-3 (really the Council President) who was discussing this was trying to give us as much information as possible without getting in trouble with the lawyers about ongoing legal discussions/negotiations. The idea is what would Plaintiffs (and their clients) rather have? An alive, but crippled, BSA National that can at least pay SOMETHING. Or a liquidated BSA National that has to pay out all pension plans for all former and current BSA employees and THEN give the plaintiffs the scraps. Edited January 17, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, CynicalScouter said: Option 1: TCC/Plaintiff's lawyers take a restructuring deal that does NOT result in the liquidation/death of BSA and that allows BSA to continue to operate/function. Option 2: TCC/Plaintiff's lawyers reject the restructuring deal. National will ask for this to convert to liquidation and plan on the Congressional Charter will allow BSA to survive with $0 assets. A complete restart. Under bankruptcy law, the BSA pension/pension holders go to the top of the list of creditors in the event of a liquidation. Once the pension is fully funded, plaintiffs attorneys get the scraps which won't be much. On 1/8/2021 at 8:39 PM, CynicalScouter said: Boy Scouts can't keep $667 million off the table, victims' group says The document mentioned in the article. They are also looking to liquidate Order of the Arrow. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/868466_1913.pdf There has been no agreement as to what is minimally required to allow the BSA to continue to operate/function and I would further say the sides are far apart. After nearly a year of Chapter 11: 1. There are ongoing asset evaluations by both sides , however, there has been no ruling whether local Council assets are on the table. 2. Insurance responsibility (payouts) remains a question. 3. There is a complete creditor list (guess who is at top of the list) 4. There is a bounded victim list (95,000 which is far more than estimated) though not yet verified. 5. As I recall, the BSA has a May deadline to present their restructuring plan to the Court. As to the disposition of BSA pensions and health plans in this bankruptcy, that remains to be seen. https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-participant-employee/retirement-topics-bankruptcy-of-employer https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/ebsa/about-ebsa/our-activities/resource-center/fact-sheets/your-employers-bankruptcy.pdf https://today.westlaw.com/Document/Ie0435490521211ebb50ccd189a1f9b53/View/FullText.html?contextData=(sc.Default)&transitionType=Default&firstPage=true My $0.01 for rambling, Edited January 17, 2021 by RememberSchiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 So, basically, the lawyers are running up bills and trying to eat each other, so to speak while those of us that actually care are left in the wind without any real idea how to procede, other than to keep the local units running? Am I about right? As I have stated before; this would not likely be happening almost anywhere else in the world, as our legal/tort system is really messed up and cares only for the money involved. Just my old, and tired opininon of course. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said: There is a bounded victim list (95,000 which is far more than estimated) though not yet verified. Just FYI, approximately 10,000 Proofs of Claim have been found to be either fraudulent or duplicates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ThenNow said: Just FYI, approximately 10,000 Proofs of Claim have been found to be either fraudulent or duplicates. Great! Only a mere 85,000 left! Total BSA liquidation (including sale of all HA bases and liquidation of the OA account) = ~$677,000,000 $677,000,000/85,000 = $7964. They are going after Councils and COs. Guaranteed. Edited January 17, 2021 by CynicalScouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 16 hours ago, CynicalScouter said: Under bankruptcy law, the BSA pension/pension holders go to the top of the list of creditors in the event of a liquidation I'm not sure this is true. My understanding is that the pensions would go to the PBGC who would then be an unsecured creditor, competing with all of the remaining unsecured creditors. Treatment of Pension Plans When an Employer Is in Bankruptcy (friedfrank.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: Great! Only a mere 85,000 left! Total BSA liquidation (including sale of all HA bases and liquidation of the OA account) = ~$677,000,000 $677,000,000/85,000 = $7964. They are going after Councils and COs. Guaranteed. Agreed ... This article, with only 5,000 claims, was estimating the fund would be on the order of $5B. Assuming insurance would have to cover 70%, BSA would need to come up with $1.5B. I can't imagine BSA not liquidating with 95,000 (or 85,000) claims. It's over for National. I fully expect 100% liquidation. Sell everything, including trademarks (good bye Eagle Scout). The lawyers will collect their fees and move on to COs & Councils. At Stake in Boy Scouts’ Bankruptcy: $1 Billion in Assets, or Much More - The New York Times (nytimes.com) Very sad .... I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just waiting to hear the news. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: It's over for National. I fully expect 100% liquidation. Sell everything, including trademarks (good bye Eagle Scout). Except those trademarks may be the ONLY thing that they can't sell. Why? 36 U.S. Code § 30905 grants the "Exclusive right to emblems, badges, marks, and words" to Boy Scouts of America ("National") Quote The corporation has the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights. In order for the bankruptcy court to order the sale of the trademarks, the court would have to (in effect) overturn an act of Congress and somehow find 36 U.S. Code § 30905 not binding? Unconstitutional? I do NOT see that happening. What I've said since the beginning is this: National (the corporate entity created by Congress) survives with $0 assets and whatever Congress granted them rights to (namely the "emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopt[ed]") So Eagle Scout survives as belonging to Boy Scouts of America. But the HA bases? OA accounts? Desks and chairs? Norman Rockwell paintings? Paperclips at Headquarters? All liquidated. And then, they turn on the Councils and COs. Edited January 17, 2021 by CynicalScouter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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