Chapter 11 announced

[Eagle1993]

3 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not an attorney,  I dont even play one on TV and I dont stay in Holiday Inn Express.

Does the "Proof of Claim" that the COs filed to protect themselves also protect those "Scout Accounts"?  At least the money would stay with the CO and not go to the lawyers?

 

If councils go down, will this change come into play?  Would all Troops/Packs/Crews essentially go "bankrupt" and their funds go over to the council (unless proof exists that it was raised by registered members of the CO)?

https://www.scouter.com/topic/32361-troop-assets/?tab=comments#comment-518054

 

[BlueandSilverBear]

21 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Assuming that worse case scenario happens,  Does that mean one day we get an email saying cease all Unit operations immediately.?  IF the local council were to survive, would we cease all operation until that Council restructures?  

Honestly, I am worried about our Camp Rangers... they live on Council property.  This would be a huge blow to them

I just wish I had a feel for how quickly some of this will actually move.  The federal courthouse in Delaware just reopened at the beginning of October and there is certainly going to be a flood of bankruptcy cases.  

I don't think we would have to cease operations during a restructuring, but there may not be access to as many resources from the Council during that time.

I'm a Circle Ten guy too... I have so many great memories at all of our camps and losing them would break my heart.  I'm thankful that I was able to take my Lion to Wisdom this fall- my grandfather camped there a Scout, and I went to day camp/camped with my Troop/staffed Oak Leaf/did my OA ordeal there.

From a totally selfish perspective... I've never been to Philmont and my biggest regret from my time as a Scout is passing on my one opportunity (I was 15 or 16, had my Eagle, and my friends had dropped).  Should I try and go this summer through the Training Center so I can experience it just in case the worst happens?

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

If councils go down, will this change come into play?  Would all Troops/Packs/Crews essentially go "bankrupt" and their funds go over to the council (unless proof exists that it was raised by registered members of the CO)?

https://www.scouter.com/topic/32361-troop-assets/?tab=comments#comment-518054

 

I cannot fathom that the BSA nor councils will ever attempt to seize unit funds as part of what happens.  This whole business about what happens to unit funds when a unit folds is so nebulous that no-one in any kind of official capacity should ever consider them as anything tangible.

[SSScout]

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

That will be terrible if/when it comes.  I'm still hopeful that councils are mostly spared … I think BSA has a good case they are separate.

Just thought of another issue … I hope the lawyers don't find out about scout accounts.  Little Billy's wreath sales fund will end up helping some New York lawyer buy a 3rd boat.

"Scout accounts"  are an accounting convenience. They do not exist in reality (I hope). All funds in the Pack/Troop/Ship  account at the Muddy Chestnut Oak Bank of West Egad belongs to the CO legally and offishully.  BSA can't touch it, legally. Might someone try?  No doubt. 

All Scouting is local ... except when it isn't.  National BSA  did not deal with the predators well way back when and the results are now coming to fore.  The morality and ethics are the same, now and back then. The way it was dealt with back then was unfortunately correct for the time (maybe) but was ultimately wrong, period.  Could the CO's have done a better job dealing with the predator that they sponsored and approved?  Yep. Could BSA have done a better job with the predator ?  Yep.  Could society in general?  Yep. 

Teach your daughters and sons to scream bloody murder "This man is not my father !" and mean it if they are touched or treated in any way inappropriately. 

It will be a while.  Wear wool socks and oil your mugluks.

[MattR]

Okay everyone, I smell panic in the air. You are, however, being very polite. So thank you for that.

I have no doubt there will be change. We just don't know what that change will entail. Isn't change one of the topics covered in Wood Badge? Things are unsure and that causes stress. That's all I remember. I probably got bored after that. I don't even remember what the syllabus said about dealing with change. What I do know is there's a fundamental idea of scouting and that won't change. I don't care if the camp I went to as a kid gets sold off, I'm done using it. The absolute best fun my scouts ever had, and myself when I was their age, was finding fun in new places. Mud, water, snow, rocks, sticks, fire, ice, sunsets, stars, friends, and in my case a WWI cemetery. New scouts will find new places but the basics will still be there. Talk to the UK scouts, they go hiking through and camping in farm fields and I'm sure they have as much fun as we do. People don't like the idea of after school scouting but maybe after school is a perfect time for patrols to meet and the troop only meets once a month for a night of competition. Change might not be so bad. It's not that we will lose donors because the donors are long gone. Figure out how to include kids from lower income families and a lot more charity funds will become available. This isn't the end of the world, it's just the end of how we used to do things.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

All Scouting is local ... except when it isn't.  National BSA  did not deal with the predators well way back when and the results are now coming to fore.  The morality and ethics are the same, now and back then. The way it was dealt with back then was unfortunately correct for the time (maybe) but was ultimately wrong, period.  Could the CO's have done a better job dealing with the predator that they sponsored and approved?  Yep. Could BSA have done a better job with the predator ?  Yep.  Could society in general?  Yep. 

I'd really love to see an honest accounting for what happened back then.  I've heard everything ranging from the "BSA had a list that was used to exclude people and was ahead of the curve" to "the BSA tried to cover up abuse that was happening."  I really, honestly don't know what happened back then.  I would welcome a 60 Minutes (or similar) news in-depth story on what happened and when.

I don't request this in order to try to save the BSA - I figure the BSA is probably done.  The sheer enormity of the number of claims and the veracity of the lawyers involved will mean that the BSA brand is tarnished and 100 years of resources the program has assembled will be lost to pay the bill.  Serves us right as a country too - it is our penance for not doing enough as a country to protect kids then too.  

[Eagle1993]

For me, its not panic, but more of a sad realization.  I thought the numbers would be closer to 7 - 10K and believed BSA could survive.  I have a hard time seeing a path forward with the numbers we are seeing now.  

I agree much of scouting can be done without council owned camps … but summer camp, typically the activity that our scouts enjoy the most will be difficult to do.  If BSA folds, I'll likely get a group started with BPSA or another organization.  If BSA survives we will continue as is.  In the end, we will move on … but it will sting.

As SM, I have two immediate concerns.

One concern is about the two crews we have going to Philmont and if they would get refunds if Philmont is sold.  They got bumped this summer due to Covid, it would be tough to see them lose out on this.  Most know the risk, I just hope they get in before the end.

The other concern was raised by a parent yesterday.  Their kids (Life scouts) were listening to the news about the BSA and have now lost some of that pride they have at being members of the BSA.  He talked them up … but this is tough to hear.  I'll talk with the scouts … they already get some garbage from classmates about being in Boy Scouts, this won't help.

BSA was in court today and it was not good news.  Perhaps they are playing hardball to scare the plaintiffs.    Summary per Bloomberg:  BSA says they need to settle by Summer or they will fail (they are running out of liquid assets to survive).  Insurance company attorneys essentially said nope, its going to take them a long time to figure this out.  Victim attorneys said probably not, but if BSA & councils sell everything and give them all of their money and they will settle.  Attorneys for the local councils stated that if BSA fails, they will take most of the funds and victims will be left with $0.

[Eagle94-A1]

23 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'd really love to see an honest accounting for what happened back then.  I've heard everything ranging from the "BSA had a list that was used to exclude people and was ahead of the curve" to "the BSA tried to cover up abuse that was happening."  I really, honestly don't know what happened back then.  I would welcome a 60 Minutes (or similar) news in-depth story on what happened and when.

There is info out there. SCOUT'S HONOR by Patrick Boyle is one book. It is from 1994. so it is "old," but it covers the time period the lawsuit is coming from. That is the one I remember of the top of my head. I wish I had all my stuff from undergrad, cause I did a paper on this topic. Sadly the stuff I kept got thrown away after Katrina.

[Eagle94-A1]

8 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

BSA was in court today and it was not good news.  Perhaps they are playing hardball to scare the plaintiffs.    Summary per Bloomberg:  BSA says they need to settle by Summer or they will fail (they are running out of liquid assets to survive).  Insurance company attorneys essentially said nope, its going to take them a long time to figure this out.  Victim attorneys said probably not, but if BSA & councils sell everything and give them all of their money and they will settle.  Attorneys for the local councils stated that if BSA fails, they will take most of the funds and victims will be left with $0.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-18/boy-scouts-aim-to-settle-95-000-abuse-claims-before-cash-crunch?utm_source=google&utm_medium=bd&cmpId=google

[skeptic]

So, while it truly concerns me, and we are struggling even more due to the pandemic, but we CAN work locally and emphasize the best of Scouting.  As we see noted on here, Scouting is local.  

Still, I actually like the idea of finding a way to get a valid and actually watched source to do the "complete" story.  That would include digging out stats from the twentieth century, from the teens, and making comparisons of youth groups of the periods, maybe by decade or something.  Also, it would discuss the realities of society's approach to these types of things, again by decades or something, pointing out where the big change in view began and grew.  It also would discuss the "fact" BSA did more than most for the time to try to keep the worst elements out, especially with the totally unprecedented Ineligible Volunteer Files; and it would hopefully show how on occasion, before computers, they were able to keep some of the predators at bay.  Following this would be the huge changes starting in the late 80's, including the challenges of the Dale issue and its post attacks.  It would discuss in depth the continued growth of YP and how the BSA is the model almost all look to for their own developments.  I have tried a number of times to guilt local news outlets into going beyond the shallow, sensationalism that is common today.  But how to get that high level article, one that will as accurately as possible give the complete story and consequences, is lost to me.  It truly appears that the media is not ready to actually write this in a balanced and nuanced way, dealing with the fact of societal changes, especially those from over thirty years ago when families often preferred to not go public, and local authorities had a different approach unless it was someone from a powerful or prominent family.  S

So, how does this come to fruition?  Is there someone that regularly reads this forum that can somehow make this happen?  I surely do not have the contacts.  Yet, based on the comments I noted from the recent feedback on the Huffington Post's thread from AOL, there are a lot of people that are on the side of common sense and recognize the legal predator angle.  

[yknot]

6 minutes ago, skeptic said:

So, while it truly concerns me, and we are struggling even more due to the pandemic, but we CAN work locally and emphasize the best of Scouting.  As we see noted on here, Scouting is local.  

Still, I actually like the idea of finding a way to get a valid and actually watched source to do the "complete" story.  That would include digging out stats from the twentieth century, from the teens, and making comparisons of youth groups of the periods, maybe by decade or something.  Also, it would discuss the realities of society's approach to these types of things, again by decades or something, pointing out where the big change in view began and grew.  It also would discuss the "fact" BSA did more than most for the time to try to keep the worst elements out, especially with the totally unprecedented Ineligible Volunteer Files; and it would hopefully show how on occasion, before computers, they were able to keep some of the predators at bay.  Following this would be the huge changes starting in the late 80's, including the challenges of the Dale issue and its post attacks.  It would discuss in depth the continued growth of YP and how the BSA is the model almost all look to for their own developments.  I have tried a number of times to guilt local news outlets into going beyond the shallow, sensationalism that is common today.  But how to get that high level article, one that will as accurately as possible give the complete story and consequences, is lost to me.  It truly appears that the media is not ready to actually write this in a balanced and nuanced way, dealing with the fact of societal changes, especially those from over thirty years ago when families often preferred to not go public, and local authorities had a different approach unless it was someone from a powerful or prominent family.  S

So, how does this come to fruition?  Is there someone that regularly reads this forum that can somehow make this happen?  I surely do not have the contacts.  Yet, based on the comments I noted from the recent feedback on the Huffington Post's thread from AOL, there are a lot of people that are on the side of common sense and recognize the legal predator angle.  

I understand where you are coming from but you have to turn around and look at what you are saying. Replace "slavery" or "segregation" with "pedophilia" and I think you'll see what I mean. There is no way to examine this retroactively with any view to trying to put what happened in any kind of context no matter how valid. Trying to engage in any kind of moral relativism can only backfire. Scouting is up against a wall. While the leadership has missed a lot of opportunities to communicate where I think they could have tried to defend themselves or clarify, there are too many things they simply cannot try to explain or defend without making things worse in both a legal and public relations sense. The other issue is that while BSA may have done more than anyone else, however flawed, to prevent abuse, it was still slow to recognize it (they've been aware they were a pedophile magnet since the 1920s) and also failed to comprehend the unique circumstances in which it combined adults with youth, as did the Catholic church to their own great sorrow. Both the scouts and the church had warning bells many decades before they took effective steps. In my opinion it's because the organizational structures and, in a way, cultures, of the two organizations had similar flaws. Both allowed potentially predatory adults unparalleled access to children; both put forward adult leaders -- scoutmasters and priests -- as persons above parental scrutiny and reproach;  both created inadequately supervised franchise- like entities, whether COs/units or parishes, where predators could operate; both put youth in remote and opaque environments with adults, whether on camp outs or for altar duty.  

I'm really sad about what's happening. It's not panic on my part, just a dwindling of hope. 

A few things have struck me the past couple weeks apart from the tsunami of claims. One has been the comments by some of the attorneys that this will forever change the way youth organizations are run in this country. Perhaps the good that will come out of this tragedy is that our country's attention will be focused on the need to better protect children and will figure out a way to do it. Another was what happened last week with the last minute scramble by COs to file proof of claims. The CO structure in BSA is dysfunctional because they have long been at cross purposes with each other and that development throws that fact into bas relief.  Another point is that I agree with MattR that scouting is obviously going to cease to exist as we know it, but whatever remains of it is still good. Some version of scouting is better than no scouting. We'll figure something out. 

 

 

 

[ParkMan]

21 minutes ago, yknot said:

I understand where you are coming from but you have to turn around and look at what you are saying. Replace "slavery" or "segregation" with "pedophilia" and I think you'll see what I mean. There is no way to examine this retroactively with any view to trying to put what happened in any kind of context no matter how valid. Trying to engage in any kind of moral relativism can only backfire. Scouting is up against a wall. While the leadership has missed a lot of opportunities to communicate where I think they could have tried to defend themselves or clarify, there are too many things they simply cannot try to explain or defend without making things worse in both a legal and public relations sense. The other issue is that while BSA may have done more than anyone else, however flawed, to prevent abuse, it was still slow to recognize it (they've been aware they were a pedophile magnet since the 1920s) and also failed to comprehend the unique circumstances in which it combined adults with youth, as did the Catholic church to their own great sorrow. Both the scouts and the church had warning bells many decades before they took effective steps. In my opinion it's because the organizational structures and, in a way, cultures, of the two organizations had similar flaws. Both allowed potentially predatory adults unparalleled access to children; both put forward adult leaders -- scoutmasters and priests -- as persons above parental scrutiny and reproach;  both created inadequately supervised franchise- like entities, whether COs/units or parishes, where predators could operate; both put youth in remote and opaque environments with adults, whether on camp outs or for altar duty.  

I'm really OK if the BSA is excoriated in some bit of journalism. 

Myself I'm not looking to excuse away the history anymore - I just frankly don't know what the BSA did or didn't do.  I can't even make a judgement at this point because I've got only generalities.  I get the sense that "Scouting really messed up", but details are so vague it's impossible for me to determine what it all actually means.  As a person, I really would be interested to know.

Edited November 19, 2020 by ParkMan
expanded the thought

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

There is info out there. SCOUT'S HONOR by Patrick Boyle is one book. It is from 1994. so it is "old," but it covers the time period the lawsuit is coming from. That is the one I remember of the top of my head. I wish I had all my stuff from undergrad, cause I did a paper on this topic. Sadly the stuff I kept got thrown away after Katrina.

Thank you so very much for the pointer.  I'll take a look.

[yknot]

43 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'm really OK if the BSA is excoriated in some bit of journalism. 

Myself I'm not looking to excuse away the history anymore - I just frankly don't know what the BSA did or didn't do.  I can't even make a judgement at this point because I've got only generalities.  I get the sense that "Scouting really messed up", but details are so vague it's impossible for me to determine what it all actually means.  As a person, I really would be interested to know.

I know. I'd like a better sense myself of what exactly happened but I think the numbers -- and the stories that each new report recounts --  are telling the tale to a large degree.  It's tragic. BSA is story of both dark and bright angels it seems. 

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I understand where you are coming from but you have to turn around and look at what you are saying. Replace "slavery" or "segregation" with "pedophilia" and I think you'll see what I mean. There is no way to examine this retroactively with any view to trying to put what happened in any kind of context no matter how valid. Trying to engage in any kind of moral relativism can only backfire. Scouting is up against a wall. While the leadership has missed a lot of opportunities to communicate where I think they could have tried to defend themselves or clarify, there are too many things they simply cannot try to explain or defend without making things worse in both a legal and public relations sense. The other issue is that while BSA may have done more than anyone else, however flawed, to prevent abuse, it was still slow to recognize it (they've been aware they were a pedophile magnet since the 1920s) and also failed to comprehend the unique circumstances in which it combined adults with youth, as did the Catholic church to their own great sorrow. Both the scouts and the church had warning bells many decades before they took effective steps. In my opinion it's because the organizational structures and, in a way, cultures, of the two organizations had similar flaws. Both allowed potentially predatory adults unparalleled access to children; both put forward adult leaders -- scoutmasters and priests -- as persons above parental scrutiny and reproach;  both created inadequately supervised franchise- like entities, whether COs/units or parishes, where predators could operate; both put youth in remote and opaque environments with adults, whether on camp outs or for altar duty.  

I'm really sad about what's happening. It's not panic on my part, just a dwindling of hope. 

A few things have struck me the past couple weeks apart from the tsunami of claims. One has been the comments by some of the attorneys that this will forever change the way youth organizations are run in this country. Perhaps the good that will come out of this tragedy is that our country's attention will be focused on the need to better protect children and will figure out a way to do it. Another was what happened last week with the last minute scramble by COs to file proof of claims. The CO structure in BSA is dysfunctional because they have long been at cross purposes with each other and that development throws that fact into bas relief.  Another point is that I agree with MattR that scouting is obviously going to cease to exist as we know it, but whatever remains of it is still good. Some version of scouting is better than no scouting. We'll figure something out. 

 

 

 

The point is not that things were done poorly in an earlier time, and since that time, huge strides have been made to try to fix it.  No amount of rules will stop it completely, but the responses can be more real and accepted in the larger society.  The issue is that, since you mention Slavery, that reparations are never going to fix the past; nor is killing the BSA, a group that is far more good than evil, for youth and the society.  But, unless our legal system gets redirected, this imbalance will get worse, and we will see attacks on many more overly positive and beneficial groups.  Meanwhile, we have to try to work with the system and be sure to stay in the guidelines completely.  It would just be nice if the media would make an effort to tell the complete story, rather than only the "juiciest" part, or most sensational.