Chapter 11 announced

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, T2Eagle said:

A scout leader from the mid eighties would be in his late seventies or early eighties today. 

Or younger.

A 22 year old leader in 1985 would be 57 today.  Mid eighties (83 - 87) is only (only...God I sound old) 37 years ago.  I've got a Philmont belt older than that

Edited November 18, 2020 by Jameson76

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

What do you think he could do?  

I mostly just meant that I think it's unlikely that the Biden-Harris administration is going to try and make an example of the BSA.  President-elect Biden, being a Scout himself, I think is less likely to turn both barrels at the BSA in an attempt to make a point simply because he can.  I don't think that institutional excesses leading to child abuse is something on his list of standard issues.

I doubt very much that he'll do anything to intervene and try to stop the bankruptcy or lawsuits.  Perhaps he'll get asked at some point and throw some moral support towards the concept and benefit of the program, but I cannot imagine it going much further.

[ParkMan]

19 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Once again, overestimating how long ago the 80s were.   I was in Cub Scouts 1981-1984 or so.  My dad was CM and he is only 69 this year.  Not 80s.    

A 21 year old Scoutmaster in 1989 would be 52 today.

EDIT: Sorry - I see someone already made the exact same point.   Sorry for the double post.  Wishing there was a delete post right now.

Edited November 18, 2020 by ParkMan
expanded the thought

[yknot]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

I mostly just meant that I think it's unlikely that the Biden-Harris administration is going to try and make an example of the BSA.  President-elect Biden, being a Scout himself, I think is less likely to turn both barrels at the BSA in an attempt to make a point simply because he can.  I don't think that institutional excesses leading to child abuse is something on his list of standard issues.

I doubt very much that he'll do anything to intervene and try to stop the bankruptcy or lawsuits.  Perhaps he'll get asked at some point and throw some moral support towards the concept and benefit of the program, but I cannot imagine it going much further.

His son Beau Biden prosecuted one of the most egregious cases of pedophilia in Delaware and there is a foundation in his son's name -- The Beau Biden Foundation -- dedicated to the protection of children. Who knows how Biden's own scout experiences will square against honoring the legacy of his dead son and what was apparently his life's interest. 

[ParkMan]

34 minutes ago, yknot said:

His son Beau Biden prosecuted one of the most egregious cases of pedophilia in Delaware and there is a foundation in his son's name -- The Beau Biden Foundation -- dedicated to the protection of children. Who knows how Biden's own scout experiences will square against honoring the legacy of his dead son and what was apparently his life's interest. 

I stand corrected.  That's very interesting.

Kind of reminds me why I've given up all hope on their being any future for the BSA in all of this.  I never expected Biden to help the BSA, but I didn't expect that he had such a family connection. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by ParkMan
Formatting & toned down my pessimism

[skeptic]

The subject made it onto the "news" feed on AOL, which is Huffington Post.  I was pleasantly surprised to see the comments, and there are many, are almost all slamming the lawyers and the whole situation.  A number loudly note what has been said on here for a long while, including noting how media hype is almost always aimed at negative stuff, and that the far greater good that has come from BSA is brushed aside.  The amount of comments about the ads and the "ambulance chasers" were very high, and many recognized that it is a societal problem.  And, while there were the few ignorant comments referencing the Dale period, most of those were met with their own negative responses.  Also were a number of ominous mentions of other groups needing to hide, and calls for fixing the legal system.  

 

[Eagle1993]

https://time.com/5912452/boy-scouts-sexual-abuse-bankruptcy/

Quote

"The Boy Scouts will likely continue to operate under another name."

This would not be  a shock if we leave BSA and Boy Scouts of America names/brand.  It is completely damaged.  If you look at our camps, many were from wealthy donors (private & corporate).  I doubt any corporation will want their name associated with BSA or Boy Scouts of America going forward (even after bankruptcy).  Even private donors may hesitate.  We will continue to need donations to maintain what remaining camps we have and that may need a new brand.

Quote

 

Meanwhile, lawyers representing the abuse victims suggested to TIME that their fight for justice will not end with the bankruptcy claims. Tim Kosnoff, a lawyer who has brought over 100 cases of abuse against the Boy Scouts, said in 2019 that the organization lied to Congress for decades and ought to face consequences in terms of the funding and regulation of whatever organization takes its place.

“They were reporting…that they were a wholesome organization,” Konsoff says, “when they were kicking out child molesters at the rate of one every two days for 100 years.”

 

My only concern here is some comments by child abuse "experts" is that he Boy Scout model of a few adults taking groups of kids in the woods is not safe.  If those groups win, and we essentially move to family camping, the true benefits of Boy Scouts are lost.  Unfortunately, I think they win by requiring high numbers of adult to youth ratios. 

[Eagledad]

52 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

This would not be  a shock if we leave BSA and Boy Scouts of America names/brand.  It is completely damaged.  If you look at our camps, many were from wealthy donors (private & corporate).  I doubt any corporation will want their name associated with BSA or Boy Scouts of America going forward (even after bankruptcy).  Even private donors may hesitate.  We will continue to need donations to maintain what remaining camps we have and that may need a new brand.

I don't know about corporate donors, I know a lot of them left years ago before BSA changed the gay membership policy when the BSA was being painted as a conservative organization. Would they come back?

Most private donors are alumni with strong memories. Would they want to continue giving to an after school program under a different name? 

I personally believe more harm would come from a name change because I don't think Boy Scouts of American is very damaged. I could be wrong, but I've not heard much negative chit chat of the BSA. If this forum is evidence of the population, most folks who speak negatively have a personal vendetta against the organization. And that is a small group with a personal experience in the program. 

Barry

[Sentinel947]

32 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don't know about corporate donors, I know a lot of them left years ago before BSA changed the gay membership policy when the BSA was being painted as a conservative organization. Would they come back?

Most private donors are alumni with strong memories. Would they want to continue giving to an after school program under a different name? 

I personally believe more harm would come from a name change because I don't think Boy Scouts of American is very damaged. I could be wrong, but I've not heard much negative chit chat of the BSA. If this forum is evidence of the population, most folks who speak negatively have a personal vendetta against the organization. And that is a small group with a personal experience in the program. 

Barry

That's my thought too. Changing the name of the program would hurt more than it helps. My experience has been most people view the program either positively or neutrally, unless they have some sort of political disagreement with the former or current membership policies, or they were mistreated or abused by a BSA volunteer or pro. 

If the BSA changes it's name, removes more traditional elements of the program, and becomes an after school camping club or family camping club, this individual donor has other worthy organizations to donate to. I don't think the corporate donors are coming back regardless. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Sentinel947

[Eagle1993]

@Eagledad

You may be right and as a 3rd generation Scoutmaster, I hope you are correct.  I did take a look at GM's bankruptcy and the new GM purchased the trademark of GM from the old GM.  So essentially, BSA would pay the bankruptcy settlement the rights to use their trademarks going forward.

Interesting interview on PBS.

https://www.pbs.org/video/abuse-in-the-scouts-1605649565/

PBS NewsHour interview with Timothy Kosnoff, plantiff attorney.  He is saying that BSA will liquidate very soon (within a few months).  Given their revenue streams have dried up due to Covid, and 100,000 claims, they will not have a path back as a viable business and will have to liquidate.   He also stated this includes liquidation of all council assets as well.  I don't see this … but … I guess that is probably the worst case scenario.  He did not request all current volunteers be jailed, so I have that going for me.

[fred8033]

Maybe advocate for Biden / Trump to designate Philmont a national historical landmark. 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

My thoughts.

#1 Looks like Kosnoff is vying to take over as lead attorney against the BSA in this case, and he will get his wish for the complete dissolution of the BSA.

#2 Regarding the name change, I do not know. I do know we need change at the National Office. Kosnoff is right, BSA did not handle the bankruptcy process correctly IMHO.

#3 Corporate donors are gone and will not be coming back. They have moved on, and the current negative publicity would hurt them, even with a name change.

#4 I think BSA has been looking at family camping since before allowing girls, hence the term "Family Scouting" when they allowed girls to join, and the push to create family camping programs. This would be a tremendous loss to BP's vision, and everything thousands of Scouters have worked towards over the past century: developing youth physically, mentally, and morally. I have seen first hand the problems "Family Scouting" can cause, and left a troop over the matter. If "Family Scouting" is the future, then like @Sentinel947 , I too will be out. I have fought too hard to preserve Scouting as I had experienced it as a youth. I will not allow my sons to suffer from 'Family Scouting" any longer and will leave if this become the norm. I have dealt with national ignoring volunteers in the field. I have dealt with the loss of the true Patrol Method. I will not deal with the death of true Scouting as envisioned by BP, expanded upon by "Green Bar Bill," and practiced in the rest of the world. if you compare the experiences of foreign Scouts to BSA's Scouts, it is a vast difference.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Eagle94-A1

[5thGenTexan]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

@Eagledad

You may be right and as a 3rd generation Scoutmaster, I hope you are correct.  I did take a look at GM's bankruptcy and the new GM purchased the trademark of GM from the old GM.  So essentially, BSA would pay the bankruptcy settlement the rights to use their trademarks going forward.

Interesting interview on PBS.

https://www.pbs.org/video/abuse-in-the-scouts-1605649565/

PBS NewsHour interview with Timothy Kosnoff, plantiff attorney.  He is saying that BSA will liquidate very soon (within a few months).  Given their revenue streams have dried up due to Covid, and 100,000 claims, they will not have a path back as a viable business and will have to liquidate.   He also stated this includes liquidation of all council assets as well.  I don't see this … but … I guess that is probably the worst case scenario.  He did not request all current volunteers be jailed, so I have that going for me.

Assuming that worse case scenario happens,  Does that mean one day we get an email saying cease all Unit operations immediately.?  IF the local council were to survive, would we cease all operation until that Council restructures?  

Honestly, I am worried about our Camp Rangers... they live on Council property.  This would be a huge blow to them

[Eagle1993]

4 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Honestly, I am worried about our Camp Rangers... they live on Council property.  This would be a huge blow to them

That will be terrible if/when it comes.  I'm still hopeful that councils are mostly spared … I think BSA has a good case they are separate.

Just thought of another issue … I hope the lawyers don't find out about scout accounts.  Little Billy's wreath sales fund will end up helping some New York lawyer buy a 3rd boat.

[5thGenTexan]

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

That will be terrible if/when it comes.  I'm still hopeful that councils are mostly spared … I think BSA has a good case they are separate.

Just thought of another issue … I hope the lawyers don't find out about scout accounts.  Little Billy's wreath sales fund will end up helping some New York lawyer buy a 3rd boat.

I am not an attorney,  I dont even play one on TV and I dont stay in Holiday Inn Express.

Does the "Proof of Claim" that the COs filed to protect themselves also protect those "Scout Accounts"?  At least the money would stay with the CO and not go to the lawyers?