Chapter 11 announced

[Jameson76]

21 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From the article and doing the math, the 93 year old suing the BSA was abused sometime between 1936 when he was 9 years old and 1944 when he was 18. That is over 80 years ago. Folk involved are long dead, including the parents who would have made the decision to press charges or not. And from my research many parents chose not to.

Not dismissing the potential accuracy or validity of this claim, but how can the BSA (or any group for that matter) put up a reasonable defense again this claim?  No real way to even verify the claimant was active in a unit at the time of the alleged abuse.  As many have noted, unless there was an actual criminal complaint and conviction pre about 1980, the accuser could be liable for accusations.  

Basically a no win scenario now.

[RememberSchiff]

14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

It seems like the big, big question is if the court sees the councils as completely independent organizations OR part of the overall Boy Scouts of America. 

Yes, as the way it was filed, collectively  by National's attorneys would seem to suggest the latter.

[fred8033]

18 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

If instead of keeping secret files all those years, what if the BSA (or Catholic Church or schools) had immediately reported whatever information they had, verified or not, to the local authorities and then removed the suspect volunteer/employee pending investigation results. 

Remember the old discussions to protect the accused volunteer/employee from false accusation, that the BSA would investigate and act accordingly or not. Some thought priority should be given to the victims. In 1988, the BSA hired FBI agent Kenneth Lannings to develop YP policies. No criminal background checks, training was not mandatory, and volunteers were to told/tested to contact the SE first , not the police but it was a start.

Despite the BSA stating they did all that was legally required, I wish the hell they had called the cops. 

My $0.02,

From a fair number that I read, the cops were called.  Not all, but a good number.  Things did not happen in isolation.  

As for "secret files" ... people need to think about technology.   There was no such thing as an easy background check until around 20 years ago.   Even worse, it was very hard to tell if the person was the same person.  Joe Carson of Kansas versus Joseph Carsen of Tampa.  These files existed to block volunteers and from what I saw, it did work.  

The real problem is these are being turned around against BSA instead of being held as an example of BSA trying to do good.

 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Not dismissing the potential accuracy or validity of this claim, but how can the BSA (or any group for that matter) put up a reasonable defense again this claim?  No real way to even verify the claimant was active in a unit at the time of the alleged abuse.  As many have noted, unless there was an actual criminal complaint and conviction pre about 1980, the accuser could be liable for accusations.  

Basically a no win scenario now.

This cries out for higher court intervention.   I don't understand how a few states can retroactively open liability for things that happened in other states.   Retroactive?  Across state lines?  Organization existing in another state?  Seems like this cries out going after the laws that opened the liability.

Edited November 17, 2020 by fred8033

[Eagle1993]

29 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

  Seems like this cries out going after the laws that opened the liability.

Agreed, but no one is going to back the BSA now.  Expect the exact opposite.  I think everyone (lawyers, politicians, etc ) will extract their pound of flesh.  I wonder if our national charter survives.

[tnmule20]

35 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Agreed, but no one is going to back the BSA now.  Expect the exact opposite.  I think everyone (lawyers, politicians, etc ) will extract their pound of flesh.  I wonder if our national charter survives.

Under a Biden-Harris administration, I doubt it.  The BSA is too easy of a target not to make an example out of at this point. They won't be able to resist. 

[ParkMan]

32 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Agreed, but no one is going to back the BSA now.  Expect the exact opposite.  I think everyone (lawyers, politicians, etc ) will extract their pound of flesh.  I wonder if our national charter survives.

I suspect the charter will as no-one really cares about it.  I suspect it's really an "inside baseball" kind of thing.

You're right though that no-one will back the BSA.  There are just too many people - including many who post here - who have bought into the concept that the BSA needs to be held accountable for what happened those many years ago.  This is as much about punishing the BSA as anything for many people.  

58 minutes ago, tnmule20 said:

Under a Biden-Harris administration, I doubt it.  The BSA is too easy of a target not to make an example out of at this point. They won't be able to resist. 

Though, I wonder if this would be the only saving grace.  Biden, as a former Scout himself, has more familiarity than many.  Also, Biden strikes me as more of a pragmatist than an idealist.  I have a feeling that he's more likely than many to look at this and say - this is going a bit too far.  Penalize the BSA sure - but destroy it over events of 30+ years ago is a bit much.

[tnmule20]

https://www.axios.com/boy-scouts-america-90000-sex-abuse-cases-f53d9d90-bbd0-460d-aa97-82782a03d991.html

Talking about the charter in this article. 

"Andrew Van Arsdale, one of the lead attorneys, called sex abuse an " unspoken norm" in BSA, per CNN."

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING LIE. There is no shame among these vipers. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by tnmule20
More content

[MacBrave]

Here is a link to a recent Indianapolis Star article stating over 300 Hoosiers have filed abuse claims:  https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/2020/11/16/boy-scouts-assault-claims-indiana/6220598002/

 

[yknot]

7 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Not dismissing the potential accuracy or validity of this claim, but how can the BSA (or any group for that matter) put up a reasonable defense again this claim?  No real way to even verify the claimant was active in a unit at the time of the alleged abuse.  As many have noted, unless there was an actual criminal complaint and conviction pre about 1980, the accuser could be liable for accusations.  

Basically a no win scenario now.

An article posted above states that about 85% of the claimants are between the ages of 45 to 52, so if true that would put the bulk of the claims in a time period ranging from about1974 at the low end to 1993. Whether the accuser is 8, 93, or somewhere in between, I assume some standard of credibility has to be met. More recent cases where corroborating witnesses or accused perpetrators may still be alive will be easier to assess, but even older cases could have some kind of substantiation that would validate them. If a cluster of previously unreported cases develops around a specific unit, campground, or event during a specific period, that would be indicative that a predator was at work no matter how long ago it was. 

[MattR]

I'd be more interested in knowing how many of the cases where after 2000. Just my opinion but the only hope the BSA has is to prove that they've solved this problem. If the number is substantially lower than, say, at schools, then maybe the judge will be able to look at what good the BSA has done.

[RememberSchiff]

11 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Not dismissing the potential accuracy or validity of this claim, but how can the BSA (or any group for that matter) put up a reasonable defense again this claim?  No real way to even verify the claimant was active in a unit at the time of the alleged abuse.  As many have noted, unless there was an actual criminal complaint and conviction pre about 1980, the accuser could be liable for accusations.  

Basically a no win scenario now.

Another scenario has me wondering. I know Chapter 11 is not a criminal proceeding but given the number of claimants and their age range could we have a claim(s) where the alleged abuser is alive and possibly was never charged or otherwise been made to account?  

Possible?

Edited November 18, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[walk in the woods]

9 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Though, I wonder if this would be the only saving grace.  Biden, as a former Scout himself, has more familiarity than many.  Also, Biden strikes me as more of a pragmatist than an idealist.  I have a feeling that he's more likely than many to look at this and say - this is going a bit too far.  Penalize the BSA sure - but destroy it over events of 30+ years ago is a bit much.

What do you think he could do?  

[T2Eagle]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Another scenario has me wondering. I know Chapter 11 is not a criminal proceeding but given the number of claimants and their age range could we have a claim(s) where the alleged abuser is alive and possibly was never charged or otherwise been made to account?  

Possible?

There's certainly some perpetrators still alive.  A scout leader from the mid eighties would be in his late seventies or early eighties today.  If these cases weren't being brought as part of a bankruptcy claim but instead were going through the normal state court civil litigation system they would be named defendants.  They might yet, the same change in statute of limitations that allows for these claims against BSA allows them against individuals.  BSA might be indemnifying Chartered Orgs but they're certainly not indemnifying these individuals.  

I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure the criminal SOLs haven't changed enough for criminal charges to be filed.

[5thGenTexan]

1 hour ago, T2Eagle said:

There's certainly some perpetrators still alive.  A scout leader from the mid eighties would be in his late seventies or early eighties today.  If these cases weren't being brought as part of a bankruptcy claim but instead were going through the normal state court civil litigation system they would be named defendants.  They might yet, the same change in statute of limitations that allows for these claims against BSA allows them against individuals.  BSA might be indemnifying Chartered Orgs but they're certainly not indemnifying these individuals.  

I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure the criminal SOLs haven't changed enough for criminal charges to be filed.

Once again, overestimating how long ago the 80s were.   I was in Cub Scouts 1981-1984 or so.  My dad was CM and he is only 69 this year.  Not 80s.