Chapter 11 announced

[David CO]

On 7/17/2020 at 10:20 PM, fred8033 said:

It baffles me how past incidents can retroactively have liability applied.  It seems we should be applying the laws and liability in placed when the incidents occurred.  Anything else is unfair and immoral.

I get what you are saying, and I suppose I actually agree with you (about half way).  I don't want to protect actual child molesters.  I don't want to protect the people who shielded the child molesters.  I'm fine with extending liability in these cases.  

However, I wouldn't want some types of behaviors, behaviors which were deemed acceptable 40 or 50 years ago, but are not allowed today, to become retroactively criminalized.  I can think of several examples.

50 years ago, we didn't normally regard a child's backside as a NO TOUCH ZONE.  I'm not even talking about spanking.  As a football coach, I used to slap players on the behind.  It wasn't child molestation or corporal punishment.  It was the football coach's equivalent of the high five.  It was how we let players know we thought they did a good job.  I know that this isn't allowed anymore, and I have no problem with that.  But I wouldn't want it to be retroactively criminalized either.  

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

However, I wouldn't want some types of behaviors, behaviors which were deemed acceptable 40 or 50 years ago, but are not allowed today, to become retroactively criminalized.

That's why the U.S. Constitution's prohibition on ex post facto laws prohibits making criminal what was legal at the time.

The ex post facto clause, however, applies only to criminal law. Not civil.
 

Quote

Both federal and state governments are prohibited from enacting ex post facto laws,1931 and the Court applies the same analysis whether the law in question is a federal or a state enactment. When these prohibitions were adopted as part of the original Constitution, many persons understood the term ex post facto laws to “embrace all retrospective laws, or laws governing or controlling past transactions, whether . . . of a civil or a criminal nature.”1932 But in the early case of Calder v. Bull,1933 the Supreme Court decided that the phrase, as used in the Constitution, was a term of art that applied only to penal and criminal statutes. But, although it is inapplicable to retroactive legislation of any other kind,1934 the constitutional prohibition may not be evaded by giving a civil form to a measure that is essentially criminal.1935 Every law that makes criminal an act that was innocent when done, or that inflicts a greater punishment than the law annexed to the crime when committed, is an ex post facto law within the prohibition of the Constitution.1936 A prosecution under a temporary statute that was extended before the date originally set for its expiration does not offend this provision even though it is instituted subsequent to the extension of the statute’s duration for a violation committed prior thereto.1937 Because this provision does not apply to crimes committed outside the jurisdiction of the United States against the laws of a foreign country, it is immaterial in extradition proceedings whether the foreign law is ex post facto or not.1938

 

[RememberSchiff]

8/7/2020:  Motion of Official Committee of Tort Claimants Enforcing Automatic Stay ...Against Middle Tennessee Council Arising From Transfers of Estate Property

5. On July 1, 2020, the Middle Tennessee Council transferred substantially all of its real and personal property to an irrevocable asset protection trust (the “Transfer”) for no consideration. At the time of the Transfer, the BSA had reversionary property interests in the assets pursuant to the BSA’s and Middle Tennessee Council’s organizational charters and bylaws. The Transfer, made with the knowledge of BSA’s bankruptcy, violated the automatic stay and is void ab initio. Despite having a self-admitted interest in the transferred properties, BSA has not taken any action to enforce the automatic stay and restore the estate’s property rights notwithstanding the Tort Claimants’ Committee demands. Therefore, The Tort Claimants’ Committee seeks an order of the Court voiding the Transfer as a violation of the automatic stay.

...

 

47. There can be no dispute that the Middle Tennessee Council knew of the BSA’s bankruptcy case; indeed, it accepted the protection of this Court prior to effectuating the Transfer. The Middle Tennessee Council’s internal communications expressly state that the Transfer was planned in anticipation of BSA’s bankruptcy case. Moreover, the Middle Tennessee Council was one among hundreds of other Local Councils that enjoyed the benefits of the Preliminary Injunction in BSA’s bankruptcy case. Finally, and as noted above, a member of the Middle Tennessee Council’s executive board published an opinion in a local newspaper on March 3, 2020, concerning the effects of BSA’s chapter 11 case on the Middle Tennessee Council.

48. The Court should void the Transfer of the Assets as a violation of the automatic stay. The BSA is in a precarious position with respect to its ability to successful reorganize. Without access to the Middle Tennessee Council’s assets, which are property of BSA’s bankruptcy estate, it will only make it more difficult for BSA to propose a plan that fairly compensates the victims of childhood sexual abuse claims.

More details (179 pages) at source: 

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/838822_1084.pdf

 

[CynicalScouter]

20 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

The Middle Tennessee Council’s internal communications expressly state that the Transfer was planned in anticipation of BSA’s bankruptcy case.

Yeah, hey folks the time to have played shell games with the real and tangible assets of your councils was like 2 years go.

Doing it now is nothing but a giant red flag "seize our assets"

[walk in the woods]

9 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

The BSA is in a precarious position with respect to its ability to successful reorganize.

 

[CynicalScouter]

19 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

The BSA is in a precarious position with respect to its ability to successful reorganize.

There's still a not 0% chance that it does get forcibly dissolved. I still don't think it will happen, but if local councils keep playing shell games with property the odds increase.

[tnmule20]

Does the BSA survive this?

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, tnmule20 said:

Does the BSA survive this?

Yes, in the sense that the incorporated entity chartered by Congress in 1916 as codified as Title 36 US Code Chapter 309 will not be dissolved and that Congress will not repeal the charter.

No, in the sense of anything as we've know National. It will be a hollow shell. Maybe a few dozen employees. Your councils will be responsible for everything and the bankruptcy will result in the number of councils collapsing from ~250 to something in the 150 range.

[tnmule20]

18 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yes, in the sense that the incorporated entity chartered by Congress in 1916 as codified as Title 36 US Code Chapter 309 will not be dissolved and that Congress will not repeal the charter.

No, in the sense of anything as we've know National. It will be a hollow shell. Maybe a few dozen employees. Your councils will be responsible for everything and the bankruptcy will result in the number of councils collapsing from ~250 to something in the 150 range.

If we lose 100 councils will there not be areas of the country that will have no Scouting at all?  Do you think surrounding councils will really want to absorb other councils that may be poorly run?

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, tnmule20 said:

If we lose 100 councils will there not be areas of the country that will have no Scouting at all?  Do you think surrounding councils will really want to absorb other councils that may be poorly run?

This is not a question of poorly run (although some are). It is a question of diminished membership and liability.

On membership,see what happened when the LDS units left; Utah merged several of its Councils into one.

On the liability: some very well run Councils are not going to be able to easily handle the amount of money they will have to put in for any settlement. For larger councils, we are talking millions. Even a "well run" council may not have that much cash sitting in reserve, so it's off to sell camps and other things.

So no, we won't have a situation where parts of the country are without a council. We will have mega-sized councils.

Edited August 10, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[tnmule20]

On 8/9/2020 at 1:00 PM, CynicalScouter said:

Yeah, hey folks the time to have played shell games with the real and tangible assets of your councils was like 2 years go.

Doing it now is nothing but a giant red flag "seize our assets"

Do you really think the Middle Tennessee council has a target on it's back now?  Will they be unfairly targeted?

Edited August 10, 2020 by tnmule20

[MikeS72]

18 minutes ago, tnmule20 said:

Do you really think this council has a target on it's back now?  Are they going to get punished?

Probably not the smartest decision MTC ever made.  I hope it does not come back to bite them in the posterior.  I spent all but the first 7.5 months of my time as a youth in scouting in Middle Tennessee Council, and while I have not lived there in almost 50 years, I still look back on those years as among the best of my life.

[Mrjeff]

Realistically, in my opinion,  if scouting is going to survive, there are going to be a lot of changes if we as scouters are willing to work at it. I dread the idea that the whole thing goes down the s%$##er and is gone forever. I envision that scout units will be very autonomous with the main burden being shouldered by local volunteers.  Each unit will be governed by the dictates of whatever organization sponsors the unit. The OA will be governed by the youth members of the individual lodge with approval of the advisor and the Council Executive.  It may be more difficult finding appropriate leaders for these positions as the qualifications may be more stringent.  The only interaction between scouts will be at the district and council level and national, section or regional events will be very few and far between.  High adventure will be limited and international events will be attended by more US scouts with the help of the local council.  There will be far less oversight so thos volunteer leaders must know how to perform their respective duties and there will be little room for mediocrity.  It may even be necessary for experienced scouters to form training teams who are willing to travel and provide the necessary seminars.  None of these things will be dependent on professionals and will be largely handled by volunteers.  All of this will depend on dedicated volunteers who are willing to help the phoenix rise from the ashes.  It wont be easy but it is worth the trouble.  My immediate family has 3 generations of Eagle Scouts, 2-four bead Woodbadgers, 1-three bead Woodbadger, 2-two bead Woodbadgers, 2-Explorer Post Captains, 1-Bachler level Commissioner, and One Masters level Commissioner.  I am proud of this legacy and pray that others have the experiences and opportunities that we have enjoyed. Things will be different and there will be new challenges, but I know that if we all stand together we can survive. God bless.

[yknot]

15 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Realistically, in my opinion,  if scouting is going to survive, there are going to be a lot of changes if we as scouters are willing to work at it. I dread the idea that the whole thing goes down the s%$##er and is gone forever. I envision that scout units will be very autonomous with the main burden being shouldered by local volunteers.  Each unit will be governed by the dictates of whatever organization sponsors the unit. The OA will be governed by the youth members of the individual lodge with approval of the advisor and the Council Executive.  It may be more difficult finding appropriate leaders for these positions as the qualifications may be more stringent.  The only interaction between scouts will be at the district and council level and national, section or regional events will be very few and far between.  High adventure will be limited and international events will be attended by more US scouts with the help of the local council.  There will be far less oversight so thos volunteer leaders must know how to perform their respective duties and there will be little room for mediocrity.  It may even be necessary for experienced scouters to form training teams who are willing to travel and provide the necessary seminars.  None of these things will be dependent on professionals and will be largely handled by volunteers.  All of this will depend on dedicated volunteers who are willing to help the phoenix rise from the ashes.  It wont be easy but it is worth the trouble.  My immediate family has 3 generations of Eagle Scouts, 2-four bead Woodbadgers, 1-three bead Woodbadger, 2-two bead Woodbadgers, 2-Explorer Post Captains, 1-Bachler level Commissioner, and One Masters level Commissioner.  I am proud of this legacy and pray that others have the experiences and opportunities that we have enjoyed. Things will be different and there will be new challenges, but I know that if we all stand together we can survive. God bless.

I am not so sure that it will become that de-centralized because of liability insurance. Anything that runs under a surviving BSA banner will need to closely follow policies and procedures in line with what insurers require, and those requirements are almost certain to become more stringent post bankruptcy. There are a lot of folks on this forum who believe scouting is a movement that requires only a handbook, volunteers, and scouts, but you would still need to be incorporated in some way and carry insurance. Outside of very affluent areas that's a tall order. In the units I'm familiar with in my area, they can meet for a hike in any park on an ad hoc basis like any other citizen, but if you want to rent a campground or reserve a pavilion or do fundraising in front of a store, you've got to have a COI. Someone could also do some of that individually, but then if something happens you are personally liable and your assets are at risk. 

 

 

[David CO]

3 hours ago, tnmule20 said:

Does the BSA survive this?

I don't think so.