Chapter 11 announced

[elitts]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I think this is why mediation has a chance.  The plaintiff lawyers realize they will probably lose this argument, so their alternate option will be going state by state and suing every individual council.  If they can settle all at once, it could be a higher return on their investment.

This is very much how I'd view it.  Particularly since if it's handled as a class action lawsuit they can get a higher "victim count".  If you start looking at local councils individually it becomes easier for the council's lawyers to look at 40 or 50 suits and start saying "Hmm.. OK, you are alleging an incident to have happened 37 years ago.  What evidence beyond your own statement do you have that this actually occurred?".

It may not be a friendly way to deal with things, but if someone is looking for a cash payout in this situation, I think it's entirely reasonable.

11 hours ago, John-in-KC said:

Serious question

Philmont is a significant property, but by mortgaging it, someone else holds its title.

It seems to me the market value of the land is not exactly what will satisfy the plaintiffs, unless they accept pennies on the dollar claims ... and that’s before The lawyers get their cut...

That's not actually how a mortgage works in most cases.  BSA still holds title to the property, it's simply encumbered with a lien for the amount of the mortgage. 

The advantage of a mortgage in this case is the fact that when the Bankruptcy court looks at the BSA's assets they'll be able to say "Well, the property is mortgaged, so hypothetically if it's sold off, the actual cash generated from a 500 million dollar sale would only be 15 million dollars.(I made up numbers).  When weighed against the total debt outstanding and the importance of this facility to the overall operations of the BSA, it doesn't make sense to force them to liquidate it."

Were it not mortgaged, it becomes much easier for a judge to say " The sale of this property would provide another 500 million in funds to pay creditors, I'm going to order it".

Edited June 9, 2020 by elitts
consolidation

[InquisitiveScouter]

15 minutes ago, elitts said:

Were it not mortgaged, it becomes much easier for a judge to say " The sale of this property would provide another 500 million in funds to pay creditors, I'm going to order it".

That might exactly be why they did it last year, to shield it from a bankruptcy liquidation order.  If the judge thinks this was the case, they may still order it liquidated free and clear.

[elitts]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

That might exactly be why they did it last year, to shield it from a bankruptcy liquidation order.  If the judge thinks this was the case, they may still order it liquidated free and clear.

It depends on what was done with the funds.  My understanding (mostly from conversations on here) is that it wasn't actually a new mortgage, it was a refinancing of the mortgage.  But even if the new mortgage was for more than the old one, if they can prove that any extra equity stripped out was used to pay down creditors or was placed into a pot to be used for the purpose of paying debts, I wouldn't imagine the judge would be punitive over it.  However, I do know that bankruptcy judges have incredibly broad authority and can even order money already paid to a creditor within a certain time frame be returned in order to make sure it is shared equally, so if they used the funds to clear a debt on Summit or something, there could be some messy adjustments made.

On the plus side, Bankruptcy judges are fairly well insulated from public pressure.

[elitts]

On 5/28/2020 at 6:10 PM, SSScout said:

 

LOL!  This is just about right.  I know that to date, the most talked about camp-out in my troop was the canoe trip where we were canoeing in high (but below "Action Stage") waters on a local river.  Everything went great until after lunch.  Then we came around a bend unusually clumped together and came up on a tree crossing 85% of the river.  Three canoes went down, one got stopped on the far side of the river in flooded, but shallow area and 2 of us pull in on the near side of the river.  Police and fireman, who happened to be there frantically hunting for 4 boaters reportedly in trouble, ended up going into full bore rescue mode (rather than letting us deal with the situation) which involved several rescuers trying to swim out to the scouts hanging out patiently on a small rock outcropping in the middle of the river.  One canoe was abandoned to the river (with it's gear). 

One everyone was out, the EMTs insisted on trying to bake the scouts dry inside an ambulance instead of just letting them change clothes.  Finally the adults managed to fend off the EMTs (who were desperate to send SOMEBODY to the ER to pay for their services).  Then we had to hunt along the river for the missing canoe and found it flipped and partially submerged a half mile down on the far side.  Retrieving it involved yours truly sliding about 70' down a not quite sheer ravine with a rope, fishing the 3 duffels out, then getting the line attached so people at the top could pull it all the way back up.  End result, one lost dry-bag that my son decided not to secure to the canoe, one lost pair of glasses (Scoutmaster ignored the repeated warnings to wear a floating strap) and some poison ivy from scouting the river edge for the lost canoe.

That night, scouts were talking to their parents about the "miserable canoe trip they never wanted to do again and can we please go get ice cream";  the next week at the troop meeting it was an awesome adventure that "the annoying police and firemen interrupted when we were doing just fine on our own".

P.S. For those who might have wondered, the police and fire were originally alerted by hikers that "4 people had gone under while boating and they didn't know what happened to them".  What we found out later was that there were four kayakers who had bailed out of their boats at the same fallen tree.  They'd all been wearing PFDs and had grabbed their boats, climbed out and were (at the time all of us were being "rescued") hanging out at the nearby McDonalds waiting for someone's wife to bring the trailer.

Edited June 9, 2020 by elitts

[Eagle1993]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

That might exactly be why they did it last year, to shield it from a bankruptcy liquidation order.  If the judge thinks this was the case, they may still order it liquidated free and clear.

Bankruptcy courts can see through these maneuvers if they are simply meant to protect assets from bankruptcy.  

https://www.wisn.com/article/court-milwaukee-archdiocese-cemetery-trust-fund-not-off-limits-in-bankruptcy-case/6325780#

 

[Eagle1993]

Mediator team now set.

Kevin J. Carey … Timothy Gallagher and Paul Finn on the mediation panel, with Judge Silverstein ruling out one of the Boy Scouts' choices to serve on the panel as a group of insurers raised concerns about potential conflicts of interest involving his selection.

"What we are looking for is true neutrality," Judge Silverstein said.

...

The Boy Scouts have 275 sex abuse claims pending against the parent organization as well as more than 1,000 additional claims against nondebtor local scouting councils and individual charter organizations that are in various stages of review, according to the Boy Scouts' first-day declaration

Read more at: https://www.law360.com/articles/1280789/ex-del-bankruptcy-judge-to-join-boy-scouts-mediation-panel?copied=1

 

 

[Eagle1993]

Also, suits against councils are held off until November 16.  However,  the councils will have to share financial details with BSA to share with creditors if they want the stay.

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/san-antonio/news/2020/06/09/suits-remain-halted--mediation-eyed-in-boy-scouts-bankruptcy

[awanatech]

12 hours ago, elitts said:

I suspect this is simply a hopeful delusion.  Lawyers have been trying to do this same thing with Catholic diocese for the last decade or so and still haven't managed to pierce that veil.  And i don't think anyone would argue that the Vatican has control over the assignment of priests and bishops.

While there are certainly a lot a similarities, I would guess that the Catholic diocese is afforded religious protections that the BSA will not have. It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison between the religious body of Catholicism and the non-profit organization of BSA.

[Sentinel947]

13 hours ago, elitts said:

I suspect this is simply a hopeful delusion.  Lawyers have been trying to do this same thing with Catholic diocese for the last decade or so and still haven't managed to pierce that veil.  And i don't think anyone would argue that the Vatican has control over the assignment of priests and bishops.

The Vatican is a sovereign nation. It's very difficult for individuals to sue foreign countries. As far as my understanding goes, the highest in the Church the lawyers can reach is the diocese themselves, maybe the National US Bishops conference. 

[DeaconLance]

15 hours ago, elitts said:

I suspect this is simply a hopeful delusion.  Lawyers have been trying to do this same thing with Catholic diocese for the last decade or so and still haven't managed to pierce that veil.  And i don't think anyone would argue that the Vatican has control over the assignment of priests and bishops.

Rome certainly has control over the assignment of bishops.  

[RememberSchiff]

Under the agreement approved Monday, local councils wanting continued protection from litigation must sign agreements by July 6 requiring them to provide information to the Boy Scouts about their finances, including real estate holdings, for sharing with creditor committees.

...

“The debtors should not be forced to monetize those assets (High Adventure camps - Summit, Philmont , Sea Base,  Northern Tier) to satisfy the claims of creditors,” said Boy Scouts attorney Jessica Boelter.

IMHO, the High Adventure Camps should go before local camps.  In normal times, far more scouts attend local camps. 

My $0.02,

https://www.abqjournal.com/1464494/suits-remain-halted-mediation-eyed-in-boy-scouts-bankruptcy.html

Edited June 10, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[DuctTape]

5 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

 

IMHO, the High Adventure Camps should go before local camps.  In normal times, far more scouts attend local camps. 

My $0.02,

https://www.abqjournal.com/1464494/suits-remain-halted-mediation-eyed-in-boy-scouts-bankruptcy.html

Agreed. Also, high adventure opportunities would still exist. A patrol could still plan a canoe trip to the Boundary  Waters, or a backpacking along the AT, PCT CDT, etc. One might argue it would be better as the decisions and planning necessary for a patrol to embark on a HA trip would help scouts grow. If they wanted to just "pay money for the services" like current  BSA HA, there already exist many outfitters and guide services to fill that void. Though I would encourage all adults to steer scouts towards planning and executing their own adventures, even the high adventure ones.

[InquisitiveScouter]

17 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Though I would encourage all adults to steer scouts towards planning and executing their own adventures, even the high adventure ones.

Like I said..."DuctTape for National Commissioner!!"

And, a fairly decent resource...https://tap.scouting.org/

[David CO]

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, the High Adventure Camps should go before local camps.  In normal times, far more scouts attend local camps. 

My $0.02,

I agree.  But I don't think BSA is looking to do the greatest good for the greatest numbers.  BSA wants to appeal to its wealthiest donors, the sort of people who can not only afford to send their kids to the high adventure camps, but can also write out big checks to the national/local councils.  It is all about the $$$.

[5thGenTexan]

Got email from the SE today.  The big thing missing from this latest communication is the line about the Council being a separate entity and immune to the impacts of the bankruptcy.

Quote

Dear Scouting family,

As you know, the national organization of the Boy Scouts of America filed for bankruptcy earlier this year to equitably compensate victims of past abuse and ensure that Scouting’s mission continues.

The bankruptcy case recently reached a milestone when a bar date was set for November 16, 2020 ­– the deadline for submitting claims in the case. This milestone triggers a mail and email notification from Omni Agent Solutions to individuals and groups (Scouts, parents of Scouts, alumni and volunteers) who have been part of the BSA within the last eight years and means you may soon receive a notice.

This notification process is part of an effort to ensure that the BSA reaches as many potential claimants, survivors of abuse, as possible so they may file a claim.  

In addition to these email and mail notifications, which will reach more than 10 million individuals, the BSA will run targeted advertising this fall as a required part of the bankruptcy noticing process.

To be clear, receiving a notice does not mean that you have a claim or that your child was harmed while in Scouting. The BSA is just being as thorough as possible. The BSA encourages all survivors of abuse to file a claim by November 16, 2020. More information about how to file a claim is available at www.BSArestructuring.org.

Although the national organization is navigating through bankruptcy, the Circle Ten Council’s local programming is continuing – following current COVID-19 policies.

Please know that in Scouting nothing is more important than the safety and protection of children in our programs; It is our top priority. The BSA has developed and implemented some of the strongest expert-informed youth protection policies found in any youth-serving organization. I can also assure you that our volunteers and employees take youth protection extremely seriously and do their part to help keep kids safe. To learn more about how the BSA keeps kids in Scouting safe today, I encourage you to visit www.scouting.org/youth-safety.