Chapter 11 announced

[SSScout]

5 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

 If a person doesnt like the rules, it's up to them to start their own club, find a club that they like, or just dont play.  You can substitute BSA for the word club as you wish.  And if you boil down the entire stew all that is left is the issue of money.  

Mrjeff :   Thank you for your leadership to our youth.

By your definition, Major League Baseball (just finished watching all nine episodes of Ken Burns wonderful documentary) would never have had black players.   Women would not have the vote.  The local Boys and Girls Club would still be male only.  Sometimes (sometimes)  the "rules" of a club need to be changed for the better.  The membership of the BSA gradually over the years went from only admitting young white male humans to admitting any young human. The majority of the membership, I think, welcomed this evolving development.  Were there  "rules" about this that changed ?  Some were written and "official",  some just informally agreed to, a wink and nod agreement if you will.   But the change to the "rules" came, and for the better in my view.  

We profess to want our kids to learn the benefits of learning skills that help one survive in many different situations, gaining confidence in one's ability. The benefits of abiding by the Scout Promise and Law.  The benefits to one's self and society in general of doing things "The Scout Way."   How much better for all involved if those future citizens of America and the world are not fettered by taught/learned prejudices?  I have heard it said that every child is multi-lingual up to about age 6 months. They all initially speak the same language. And then, to quote Rogers and Hammerstein, "they've got to be carefully taught."    I believe the best thing BSA ever did was to make the only initial membership requirements  to be a breathing young human.  A belief in God? Some higher power?  Yes, that is still a worthy requirement, but I can tell you that in my years as a Scout leader and Chaplain, I have often had to  remind folks that the BSA is not by definition a "Christian" organization.  Religious, yes, but the particular faith of a Scout should never be up for discussion.  

Form another club?   Yes, that is done.  Notably the B-P Scouts and the new Vanguard Scouts of the CoJCoLDS . Join another club?   Lots of choices there... 4H,  Campfire,  GSUSA,     . Work to change the rules of OUR club?   Yes, that is also done.  Has been done.   

I hope to see you on the trail, sometime.   Socially distant, of course......  

[Mrjeff]

Major league baseball is neither a club or private.  There is no application to be submitted and there is no membership fee.  You can not compare apples and oranges.   If I apply for membership in a group that has certain rules an I pay a fee to belong to that club, and my application is accepted does in no way guarantee the membership to another who does not want to follow the dictates of that club.  That Private Club has the absolute authority to deny membership to anyone who refuses to follow the club rules.  I think that is is the perogative of anyone to socalize and associate with those who adhere to the same interests and values that I  have and not to associate with those who do not.  Just because an individual wants to be part of that group does not overshadow that.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

 I know of no survey, questionnaire, or petition that was distributed to the members asking for these changes.  

 

Actually there was a survey or questionnaire on the matter. But from the questions on the survey, the manner in which they conducted the survey, and the results they excluded from the survey, it seemed that the decision was already made. 

The questions were very biased towards the decision they wanted. Anyone taking it would have known what answers they wanted. as they really didn't give options

The manner in which they conduced it ticked off a lot of folks, professionals included. First national informs the SEs and council presidents and commissioner, DAYS  PRIOR TO A NATIONAL SCOUT JAMBOREE ( emphasis) that they want these town halls done by a a date that was 15 days after jamboree ended. When it was announced, many SEs  council presidents and commissioners were either on their way to jambo, or already there on staff. My council key 3 were furious at the short notice of it, as they were only able to schedule 1 town hall prior to the date. Then in order to have a town hall, all three people had to be present. THEN only those attending the town hall could take the survey. In my neck of the woods, were were given so short notice, that only 14 people were able to attend FROM A 15+ COUNTY AREA ( emphasis). I was the only one who could make it from my district. They had a second one scheduled, but it was AFTER the deadline, so thsoe folks were unable to take the poll.

Then when the results were tabulated, LDS members in the Western Region were excluded from the results. Don';t know about the rest of the regions, but some  booklet that was published had a foot note stating that fact. Why would you leave out 18+% of the membership out of the poll?

What i find intersting is that the booklet did nto have the results of the poll. In fact I cannot find the results of the poll published in any BSA publication. Instead National used non-member polls to justify their decison.

[Mrjeff]

Yea, there was a survey but if you recall I said members.  By that I ment regular members who signed up to be BOY SCOUTS. Some adults, not all were asked to give an opinion.  I heard a lot of "this group loves it or that group loves it" but I never heard one youth member say that they love those ideas.  It seems like the old catch phrase "it's all for the boys" excludes the views of the group of people who it was all supposed to be for.  It would also appear that the drastic changes made at the national level didn't work out very well.  I know that a lot of people will disagree,  but the proof is in the outcome. 

[Mrjeff]

I know that I have a very conservative and traditional point of view.  I am thankful for this forum that allows conversation between individuals who have a passion for Scouting and are aware of the positive influence that Scouting provides.  I guess if I could could go back in time, Scouting would be as it was when I was a Scout.  But I also know that the world is constantly changing and the old ways must evolve and keep pace with those changes.  I was recently questioned by a young lady about my opinion concerning girls becoming Eagle Scouts.  I told her that my personal opinion really doesnt matter because as long as I  am a part of Scouting it is my responsibility to support, encourage, and assist our young members in reaching the goals that they set.  I choose to remain a part of the BSA and gladly accept that responsiblity.  As an OA Lodge Advisor I am looking forward to the time that our lodge is able to welcome young ladies into our order.  I was also the Advisor of an Explorer Post where I served for 20 years.  I noticed that young ladies were dedicated members and it was common for them to rise to leadership positions.  I have also stated that when the girls get into the. OA they are likely going to take over.  I am concerned about the current state of affairs of the BSA and can't even guess where we are heading or what will happen next.  The only thing I know is that our OA Lodge will continue and the Venture Crew in which I am involved will recharter and deliver a quality and exciting program for the youth of our community.  I have no doubt that the next two years are going to difficult and challenging but as far as I'm concerned, it's worth the fight.  I imagine that most of us feel the same.  God bless and Scout On!!!

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, SSScout said:

Mrjeff :   Thank you for your leadership to our youth.

By your definition, Major League Baseball (just finished watching all nine episodes of Ken Burns wonderful documentary) would never have had black players.   Women would not have the vote.  The local Boys and Girls Club would still be male only.  Sometimes (sometimes)  the "rules" of a club need to be changed for the better.  The membership of the BSA gradually over the years went from only admitting young white male humans to admitting any young human. The majority of the membership, I think, welcomed this evolving development.  Were there  "rules" about this that changed ?  Some were written and "official",  some just informally agreed to, a wink and nod agreement if you will.   But the change to the "rules" came, and for the better in my view.  

We profess to want our kids to learn the benefits of learning skills that help one survive in many different situations, gaining confidence in one's ability. The benefits of abiding by the Scout Promise and Law.  The benefits to one's self and society in general of doing things "The Scout Way."   How much better for all involved if those future citizens of America and the world are not fettered by taught/learned prejudices?  I have heard it said that every child is multi-lingual up to about age 6 months. They all initially speak the same language. And then, to quote Rogers and Hammerstein, "they've got to be carefully taught."    I believe the best thing BSA ever did was to make the only initial membership requirements  to be a breathing young human.  A belief in God? Some higher power?  Yes, that is still a worthy requirement, but I can tell you that in my years as a Scout leader and Chaplain, I have often had to  remind folks that the BSA is not by definition a "Christian" organization.  Religious, yes, but the particular faith of a Scout should never be up for discussion.  

Form another club?   Yes, that is done.  Notably the B-P Scouts and the new Vanguard Scouts of the CoJCoLDS . Join another club?   Lots of choices there... 4H,  Campfire,  GSUSA,     . Work to change the rules of OUR club?   Yes, that is also done.  Has been done.   

I hope to see you on the trail, sometime.   Socially distant, of course......  

Major League Baseball had no rule against Black players.  Rather, social pressure (racism) and an "understanding" (the "Gentlemen's Agreement") between owners of the franchised teams kept MLB Lilly White - the "Color line" for over fifty years.  MLB was actually two corporations until 2000, the National League and the American League, although they shared a common executive, the Commissioner of Baseball, from 1920 froward.

As WW II ended, Brooklyn General Manager Branch Rickey wanted to win and owned 25% of the Brooklyn Dodgers.  If other teams were so foolish as to fail to compete for Black stars, the greater fools they. 

Two teams broke the MLB Color Line in 1947 - Brooklyn , with Jackie Robinson,  already in its minor league system, and Cleveland,  with Larry Doby.  

The Owner of the Cleveland Indians in 1947, Bill Veeck, had planned to buy the Philadelphia  Phillies in 1942 and stock the team with Black players, but the Commissioner of Baseball, a  racist of the first order, saw to it that Veeck was not allowed to buy the team, preserving the Color Line.  By 1947, that Commissioner was dead, and the new commissioner had no desire to continue the Color Line, allowing Veeck to sign Doby and Rickey to promote Robinson to the Dodgers. 

By 1957, every MLB team had at least one Black player, although they were underrepresented on All Star teams for the next thirty years.

Trying to analogize the situation of the Boy Scouts of America to MLB does not seem like a good fit. 

 

  

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by TAHAWK

[SSScout]

11 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Trying to analogize the situation of the Boy Scouts of America to MLB does not seem like a good fit. 

Just because the "rule" isn't written down doesn't mean it isn't a "rule".  Perhaps the analogy is not exact, but the reality is there.  For many of it's early years,  BSA did not allow people of color, females,  of a certain sexual orientation,  or religion either by official "rule" or by local "gentleman's agreement" .  Society changes, perhaps we can say "grows up".  Your cited history is correct,  Ken Burns and his company tell a good story.  The BSA  by it's professed ideals of the Scout Promise and Law  needed to be nudged , needed to be reminded of those things.  That is how society changes, by being reminded of the ideals.  

Tahawk,  buy yourself a beer and put it on my tab. 😉

[TAHAWK]

Your observation on "rules" seems absolutely correct.  But the entertainment business that was and is MLB still is not, as BSA was once found to be by SCOTUS, a "religious" organization, even if some baseball players are called "gods" and are worshiped after a fashion.

I do not watch PBS and, so, have no idea what "story" Ken Burns is telling about MLB. Being a baseball fan who lived in southern California for twenty-five years, I learned the Dodger's story decades ago - primarily from Vincent Edward "Vin" Skully .   From 1973 - date, I have lived in NE Ohio and followed the Indians, saw Frank Robinson, another "first" as an MLB manager, take his first swing as Player-Manager of the Featherheads (HR), and met Larry Doby.   There are, of course,  entire "books" about baseball history, and while it might seems quaint, I read books far more than I watch TV.  Heck, I don't even have a "device" and thought for years that "WiFi must some update of Hi Fi.  😤

The troop I joined as a Scout in 1954 pre-dated BSA by well over a year and was racially and religiously integrated from 1909 forward.  That  was the rule, but there were a few exceptions in the area: a couple of Catholic troops (as the long-time Archbishop of Los Angeles,  Cardinal McIntyre , opposed Catholics being in Scouting); and all-White troops.  In those years, Japanese-American Scouts were more of an issue for racists, in California, except for the John Birch Society, whose members picketed Council HQ every Scout Week, protesting our trick-or-treating for UNICEF, the World Brotherhood Merit Badge, and "race mixing."

We heard there were  strange, racially-segregated troops in the South - that area over the horizon south of "back east."   Made little sense to us in our white, brown, black, yellow, ?? troop of 120.

As you doubtless know, female Explorers arrived in 1969 and female Venturers in 1998.  Most of the World population had not been born when BSA had no female youth members.Thank you for the offer of suds.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by RememberSchiff
I tried

[RememberSchiff]

To paraphrase Terrence Mann (played by James Earl Jones) words from  “People Will Come” speech in Field of Dreams.

"The one constant through all the years has been Scouting. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But Scouting has served all the time. These scouts, this program: it's a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again. Oh...families will come. Families will most definitely come.”

[Mrjeff]

There are a lot of theories and ideas being tossed around. When the BSA announced the bankruptcy they clearly stated that they national organization did not own the individual councils and that they were administered by their own bord of directors.  That statement tells me that the BSA owned 4 campgrounds, an office, and a brand.  Issues concerning merging or combining councils are the responsibility of those local boards.  Units should be responsible for their own business with the help of their local council.  I see little need for monitors or policy enforcement professionals or any of the other committees that pass regulations and directives that affect councils that they dont own.  BSA at the national level should take care of their property and supplying the units with what they need and leave everything else to the units.  Councils can supply administrative support, be the direct link to the supply division and coordinate occasional council events.  All of the beurocratic b&%* s&%@ that really doesnt have anything to do with unit activities can be deleated and Scout Leaders can focus on the program and worry less about all of the "must do...must do not...illegal patch....knife blade sizes...." and focus on the kids and just having fun.  I think this is a great oppertunity to return Scouting to the community and remove the decisions of national committees from being the final decision makers on all things scouting.  I often wonder what people on these committees know about providing the Scouting program to communities, cities, and states where they have never been.

[desertrat77]

Well said, @Mrjeff.

I've watched the professional levels of the BSA over the decades become more and more distant from grass roots scouting.   Same with the council and National committees.

Edited April 9, 2020 by desertrat77

[Mrjeff]

Nearly everything is automated anyway.  YPT, advancement, training, and rechartering are all automated.  I sometimes think that those positions that have "region, area, or national" are no more but honorariums and are given out just to stroke individual egos.   What do these people do to positively support individual units?  How is someone from Connecticut going to tell  people in Georgia how to conduct the Scouting program?  These are the ones who like to say "you can't do that" or "that is not proper uniforming" and expect you to take their word for it.  I think that those who are "above the council level" should be reminded that the council is autonomous; as far as fun, enjoyable, or adventurous, those words aren't even in the BSA mission statement.  Let's get the whole idea of having fun back into Scouting.  I have never, ever, in no way heard a kid say, "the reason I joined scouting is to memorize, study, sit in a classroom like meeting, or to learn life's lessons.  Every last one of them join up to get outside and have fun.

[SSScout]

On 4/2/2020 at 3:42 PM, TAHAWK said:

I do not watch PBS and, so, have no idea what "story" Ken Burns is telling about MLB. Being a baseball fan who lived in southern California for twenty-five years, I learned the Dodger's story decades ago - primarily from Vincent Edward "Vin" Skully . 

Oh, you would love the Ken Burns documentary.   You  can find the DVD for sure (Amazon?), or  try this:  https://www.mlb.com/news/ken-burns-baseball-streaming-free-on-pbs    Realize it is a nine "inning" series , each 90 or so minutes.  Sit back and enjoy. 

On 4/2/2020 at 3:42 PM, TAHAWK said:

Thank you for the offer of suds.

My pleasure. Belgian Zot..... 

[RememberSchiff]

Schedule of Assets and Liabilities of BSA

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/812006_375.pdf

Over 1000 pages of approximate?, best-guess? assets and liabilities of BSA.  Recommend one take some aspirin before skimming as I now have a migraine.

Note pages 144 thru 185 (42 pages!) list all BSA registered internet domains with "undetermined" value. The domains are in alphabetical order in small font, roughly 31 domains per page. 31 x 42 = 1302 domains more or less? The BSA even registered scouter.org (expires 2021-10-16)!  What a waste of money!

Artwork, copyrights, and trademarks are listed, some with appraised values.

Schedule A/B (Form 206A/B) Assets Real and Personal Property

Page 210 has Schedule D (Form 206D) Creditors Who Have Claims Secured BY Property.  (36 pages) Creditors are listed alphabetically. Liens are listed in a separate UCC Financing Statement?

Page 246 has Schedule E/F (Form 206E/F) Creditors Who Have Unsecured Claims (878 pages). Girl Scouts of America is listed on page 877.

Page 1124 has Schedule G  (Form 206G) Executory Contracts and Unexpired Leases (119 pages)

Page 1243 Schedule H (Form 206H) Codebtors - multiple listing of Delaware BSA, LLC and Arrow WV (3 pages)

Summary of Assets and Liabilities for Non-Individuals  (Form 206Sum)

Appended with Official Form 202 signed by Michael Ashline, CFO and Treasurer

Edited April 9, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[carebear3895]

17 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

Well said, @Mrjeff.

I've watched the professional levels of the BSA over the decades become more and more distant from grass roots scouting.   Same with the council and National committees.

To be fair, the Professional has always been that way. That was by design by Mr. West himself.