Chapter 11 announced

[ThenNow]

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

that Local Councils are independent business entities (as BSA states) and remove them (and their assets) entirely from the BSA bankruptcy case. The bankruptcy case simplifies (?) to Debtor, insurers, and creditors (of which victims who choose? are part).

This is certain liquidation for open state LCs, since none of the Councils will be released from liability if they don't participate. They are non-parties to the case and only get protection if they "voluntarily" contribute to the Trust. This appears to be the approach the TCC is taking, as I understand it.

Is your thought to preserve LCs not subject to immediate or highly likely near-terms lawsuits, based on the status of state SoLs? As we've discussed, though not all have look-back windows, many have pending legislation that could very well lead to one. I'm just trying to understand the anticipated outcome of the $.01 suggestions.

[TAHAWK]

10 hours ago, David CO said:

Yeah, but Satan has all the best lawyers.

In the most famous case against Satan, he had no lawyer of record.  The case was dismissed by the District Court on its own motion for lack of personal jurisdiction over Satan because the record showed no service of process on Satan or the other defendants, his "Staff."    United States ex rel. Gerald Mayo v. Satan and His Staff, 54 F.R.D. 282 (W.D.Pa. 1971).

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

This is certain liquidation for open state LCs, since none of the Councils will be released from liability if they don't participate. They are non-parties to the case and only get protection if they "voluntarily" contribute to the Trust.

I'm not sure that national cares if councils are liquidated.  It's a simple process to form a new council.  

 

[5thGenTexan]

If that chart of offenses goes public, I know its public record but not widely known in the mainstream media, the BSA will be toast in the court of public opinion.  Just to be clear, I am not suggesting it should be hidden or not known the the public in general.

Once its out there, whether or not it represent the actions of most Units active today, no one will want to send their kid to participate in anything to do with the BSA.  And I am not saying they are wrong or right, just that the data in that chart put the whole of the BSA is a very bad light.

I am not sure if matters if LCs are able to survive lawsuits.

[TAHAWK]

22 minutes ago, David CO said:

I'm not sure that national cares if councils are liquidated.  It's a simple process to form a new council.  

 

Troop 43, in which I was a Scout, was locted in Santa Ana, California.  Its founding predated the formation of the local council by twelve years.  A perviously formed council, started eight years after the troop was founded, disappeared in less than a year.  Of course, this was the wilderness of Orange County, California.  It only took twenty-five months for BSA to reach Cleveland, Ohio.  At times, even the simplest task is dificult and time-consuming..

[David CO]

23 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

At times, even the simplest task is dificult and time-consuming..

I'm a senior citizen.  You don't need to tell me that.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

f that chart of offenses goes public, I know its public record but not widely known in the mainstream media, the BSA will be toast in the court of public opinion. 

Again, this is me throwing question darts at a board in the dark. I ask out of ignorance and not grinding anyone's nose in something.

Was it truly the assumption that these were minor "offenses" and random, though malicious acts of "touching," and etc.? I am taken aback by the reaction to the data, since we've been talking about sexual abuse. Plus, I have been blathering on about my experience. Did most assume my claim is isolated and/or anomalous?  

[David CO]

5 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Was it truly the assumption that these were minor "offenses" 

Yes.  At first, back in the 80's, I thought it was just a witch hunt.  I was convinced that the idiots at national invented all this nonsense just to give them a ready excuse to target good scouters.  

I also felt that it was mostly driven by spineless ninnies who simply did not understand the realities of working with boys in a scouting environment.

 

[5thGenTexan]

19 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Again, this is me throwing question darts at a board in the dark. I ask out of ignorance and not grinding anyone's nose in something.

Was it truly the assumption that these were minor "offenses" and random, though malicious acts of "touching," and etc.? I am taken aback by the reaction to the data, since we've been talking about sexual abuse. Plus, I have been blathering on about my experience. Did most assume my claim is isolated and/or anomalous?  

When I try to talk about the lawsuit with other leaders, everyone pretty much knows BSA filed bankruptcy as a result of sex abuse claims.  Sometimes they reply with a "oh yeah, I remember that happening".  Sometimes they reply with yeah, but most of those claims are a really long time ago and probably were probably just making it up.  Had one just the other day say it doesnt matter, people dont wait years to tell someone.  That is just leaders.

The general public, I am kinda talking parents of current and prospective Scouts may not even know there is any sort of legal "thingy" currently going on.

No one is taking what is happening seriously.  Either brushing it off as no big deal or if they believe it will end and everything will just continue as normal.  Personally, even at a Council Day Camp, I don't even like my kid going to the restroom without me standing at the door waiting on him.  I am not terribly trusting of anyone anymore.

When the type of abuse and the number of cases becomes more commonly known its really gonna hit the fan,  If you know what I mean.

[ThenNow]

25 minutes ago, David CO said:

I was convinced that the idiots at national invented all this nonsense just to give them a ready excuse to target good scouters.  

I also felt that it was mostly driven by spineless ninnies who simply did not understand the realities of working with boys in a scouting environment.

Well, okay then, as they say in the northern midwest. I have no pithy retort to either of those sentences.

[SilverPalm]

Now, wait just a minute.  I'm a page or two late here, but if I'm understanding this correctly, is the current estimation some $102B?  And, if as the document says, that valuation is low, then is the argument being made that the approximate valuation of these claims falls around $100 - 150B?

I have no right to comment on whether that's an appropriate figure, none at all.  I can, however, do basic math.  Isn't $102B something like twenty or twenty-five times the entire valuation of the BSA, National and Local Councils included?  

Let's say that all the campsites are liquidated, that every council building is sold, that every Scout shop sells off their inventory.  If the total valuation of all that comes out to only 4-5% of the total liability represented by this estimate (I'm no lawyer, so I apologize if I use any terminology incorrectly here), then where is the other, well, 95% of the settlement going to come from?

And, to be fair, I'm not sure kids would want to join up if there's no uniforms, camps, or patches to earn.  That's a death knell for the BSA, no questions there.  So even if you sell everything for $5B, that's it - no more BSA, no more dues, no way to pay anything beyond that $5B.  

Yes, $5B is unacceptable, now that we're finding that 85 or 90% of these claims are not going to be dismissed as spurious.  But, honestly, if $5B is all that's on offer, even with the complete and total partitioning out of the BSA assets... where is the rest of the money going to come from?

[vol_scouter]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

I'm not sure that national cares if councils are liquidated.  It's a simple process to form a new council.  

 

That is nonsense!  If no local councils, then no Scouts and camps for them to use.  If National didn't value the local council highly, they could have pushed the liability down to the councils from the beginning.  Almost all abuse has occurred in the councils save a few possible incidents at a high adventure base.  So the national council has tried to protect the local councils where the crimes occurred.

[David CO]

14 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

If National didn't value the local council highly, they could have pushed the liability down to the councils from the beginning.  

Isn't that what they're already doing?  BSA is trying to save their high adventure bases at the expense of local camps.  The local camps are already starting to be sold.

 

[ThenNow]

16 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

When I try to talk about the lawsuit with other leaders, everyone pretty much knows BSA filed bankruptcy as a result of sex abuse claims.  Sometimes they reply with a "oh yeah, I remember that happening".  Sometimes they reply with yeah, but most of those claims are a really long time ago and probably were probably just making it up.  Had one just the other day say it doesnt matter, people dont wait years to tell someone.  That is just leaders.

The general public, I am kinda talking parents of current and prospective Scouts may not even know there is any sort of legal "thingy" currently going on.

I am in the midst of a very elementary national survey to see what people know about the case, their thoughts, on it, whether they think the BSA should continue, if their kids are allowed to be in activities with other adults while they are not with them and several other things. I will report, if anyone would like to know the results. To your point, I was pretty surprised how many people said things like, "I know little or nothing...some leaders took advantage of some boys years ago...they had to file bankruptcy because the LDS church left" and etc. Also, 65% or so know someone who was sexually abused as a child. Not surprised, but notable.

 

51 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

No one is taking what is happening seriously.  Either brushing it off as no big deal or if they believe it will end and everything will just continue as normal.

This is why I posted the chart and why I have been baffled at the ho-hum approach being taken by the LCs and COs, not to mention the BSA. They and the Ad Hoc Committee (I assume) had the data for months via a settlement demand from the TCC. I guess they weren't in a sharing mood. "Hello? Anyone serious about this?" [insert head shake and befuddled look]

[ThenNow]

42 minutes ago, SilverPalm said:

Isn't $102B something like twenty or twenty-five times the entire valuation of the BSA, National and Local Councils included? 

Don't forget the insurance assets of the BSA and LCs, the Chartering Organizations and the insurance assets of the COs. There are multiple buckets, not just the aggregate assets of the BSA and LCs.

Edited April 3, 2021 by ThenNow