Chapter 11 announced

[yknot]

38 minutes ago, David CO said:

I was expecting to see the bulk of the offenses to be in the lesser categories.  It was the opposite from what I expected.  The worst of the crimes had the highest occurrences.

These scouters are not being targeted for helping boys apply suntan lotion or boosting kids out of the pool.  These are egregious offenses.  I think we should know that.

I think it also makes it hard to dismiss a lot of these claims as,  "In 1940, some Scoutmaster touched my leg and I felt weird". I think some people have been scoffing that these claims would not be serious.  

38 minutes ago, David CO said:

I was expecting to see the bulk of the offenses to be in the lesser categories.  It was the opposite from what I expected.  The worst of the crimes had the highest occurrences.

These scouters are not being targeted for helping boys apply suntan lotion or boosting kids out of the pool.  These are egregious offenses.  I think we should know that.

I think it also makes it hard to dismiss a lot of these claims as,  "In 1940, some Scoutmaster touched my leg and I felt weird". I think some people have been scoffing that these claims would not be serious.  

[MYCVAStory]

43 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

We, the members of scouter.com, include scouts as well as scouters. The content is public, the link has been published, and IMHO the decision to view should be left to the individual member.

Legally aren't these numbers criminal allegations? How many were criminal convictions?

Those were my thoughts in moderating that post.

RS

I applaud you in providing the opportunity for people to understand well the extent of the claimed abuse.  This has all remained hidden for too long and until people are confronted with reality they cannot make informed decisions as to how best to react and ultimately deal with what happened.  Over 40,000 people claim to have been victims of the two highest categories of abuse, and those numbers do not reflect multiple instances of abuse.  As well, the published numbers are the "highest" form of abuse and probably include lower forms as well.  Remember too that over 11,000 of the 85,000 cases occurred since the current Youth Protection Training protocols were largely initiated in 1990.  Oh, and it is widely accepted that many victims don't come forward until they are 40+ so that 11,000 may be much less than reality.   It's time to deal with reality in this bankruptcy, and with the future of the BSA.   The reckoning has begun.

[ThenNow]

57 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

We, the members of scouter.com, include scouts as well as scouters.

I did not know about the dual membership. I assumed Scouters from “Scouter.com.” The very LAST thing I would ever want to do is cause anyone trauma over this. God forbid. I am very sorry if it occurred in any way.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

These scouters are not being targeted for helping boys apply suntan lotion or boosting kids out of the pool.  These are egregious offenses.  I think we should know that.

One of the reasons I posted what I did goes to this very point and, by implication, YPT. The data and reality represented is what lies on the other side of whatever effort you put into “firewalling” predators. Failure to enforce or allowing 67% completion of training leads to that chart. It’s dark, stark and ugly. It’s also very real. We survivors have felt it was not being seen for what it truly is. Now it’s unavoidable. Few things are more affirming that to be believed in the face of widespread doubt and aspersions. 

[David CO]

29 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Failure to enforce or allowing 67% completion of training leads to that chart.

I disagree.  YPT is stupid.  It has little to do with that chart.  

The part of the recent filings I found most interesting was the paragraph about BSA not revising YPT.  Thousands of kids have been molested since YPT was implemented.  Spot on!  

But YPT is a different topic.

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by David CO

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Legally aren't these numbers criminal allegations? How many were criminal convictions?

I’m not sure what you’re looking for here, but yes. State statutes define criminality and level of offense associated with each act, depending on age, force, injury, and, etc. All categories represent criminal acts, statutes depending. In the old days and maybe today, the last category might goes to “contributing to the delinquency of a minor” up to child pornography. 

Have any been prosecuted? No clue. In my case and many others, the criminal SoL had run by the time I was ready to act. Some of the claims could be prosecuted under newly revised SoL in certain states, if the survivor chooses and prosecutors are willing. As CynicalSouter has said, it’s a tough row to hoe in a criminal case after so much time has elapsed. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is a high bar of proof/evidence to get a guilty verdict.

Again, I can refer you to CHILDUSA and their work for details on SoL reform.

[ThenNow]

18 minutes ago, David CO said:

I disagree.  YPT is stupid.  It has little to do with that chart.  

The part of the recent filings I found most interesting was the paragraph about BSA not revising YPT.  Thousands of kids have been molested since YPT was implemented.  Spot on!  

But YPT is a different topic.

I’ve read this three times. I make no sense of it other than to conclude it’s a puzzle of contradictions. 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

I think it also makes it hard to dismiss a lot of these claims as,  "In 1940, some Scoutmaster touched my leg and I felt weird". I think some people have been scoffing that these claims would not be serious.  

I think it also makes it hard to dismiss a lot of these claims as,  "In 1940, some Scoutmaster touched my leg and I felt weird". I think some people have been scoffing that these claims would not be serious.  

You can say that again.  

[yknot]

43 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I’ve read this three times. I make no sense of it other than to conclude it’s a puzzle of contradictions. 

I don't know what that means but what I am taking from all this is that the effort of trying supervise unrelated adults taking unrelated children into the unsupervised out of doors may not, on balance, be a good idea. It just may be beyond the capabilities of the human animal. 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

what I am taking from all this is that the effort of trying supervise unrelated adults taking unrelated children into the unsupervised out of doors may not, on balance, be a good idea. 

That's where scouting went wrong.  Originally, the idea was that they would all be from the same CO.  They would already know each other.  They would have an established group identity and sense of common purpose.  They wouldn't be totally unrelated people.

Somewhere along the line BSA got away from that.  

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

That's where scouting went wrong.  Originally, the idea was that they would all be from the same CO.  They would already know each other.  They would have an established group identity and sense of common purpose.  They wouldn't be totally unrelated people.

Somewhere along the line BSA got away from that.  

Originally a group of neighborhood kids were to form a patrol and go camping without adult supervision.  There are liability issue with a sponsoring institution allowing THAT to happen, even if the bureaucracy allowed it.  If two adults are always present, you may still be sued.  God has been sued, as has Satan.  But I would be quite willing to accept that risk.  But the way things are going, I wonder if there will be an opportuntiy to do so, and I have to ask myself if I want to do it under the direction of BSA, given its performance - including its performance to date.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

  God has been sued, as has Satan.  

Yeah, but Satan has all the best lawyers.

[RememberSchiff]

21 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I see no path where there is an agreement to protect LCs and COs.  The complexity is just too great.   National BSA declared bankruptcy.  Settle out their assets.  Let the lawsuits against COs and LCs to proceed.  They can declare bankruptcy if appropriate.  I see now other path given how complex.

It’s interesting to see the $102B estimate.  

Agree, the Debtor and Victims Groups are too far apart on a "plan", but we now have a proposed individual claim from both sides - $6000 vs $811,215

So much money and time wasted, so little progress! Remember the BSA first hired Sidney Austin back in Dec, 2018 to develop the first reorg plan (Feb, 2020). Yeh, blame it on covid.

Some random Saturday thoughts.

Maybe the Judge will rule:

     - that Local Councils are independent business entities (as BSA states) and remove them (and their assets) entirely from the BSA bankruptcy case. The bankruptcy case simplifies (?) to Debtor, insurers, and creditors (of which victims who choose? are part).

   - which National assets are restricted if any.

Perhaps the US Trustee can arbitrate a individual claim structure and derive a total for Victim's trust to be funded by National and insurers.

My $0.01,

[ThenNow]

12 hours ago, yknot said:

what I am taking from all this is that the effort of trying supervise unrelated adults taking unrelated children into the unsupervised out of doors may not, on balance, be a good idea. It just may be beyond the capabilities of the human animal. 

It may be true. Based on what some of you report, I’m not sure. Many seem to be far removed from abuse or negative experiences. I suppose the issue really is can safety be replicated and, more so, ensured. If it can’t be reliably replicated, that’s quite an indictment on the human animals. No surprise. Sounds like Scouting’s philosophical and practical death knell, if the opinion is widely held among the ranks. Time to fold up the tents and liquidate, then? 

(Btw, having the “best lawyers” is ultimately meaningless when the Supreme Judge is on the other team.)

Edited April 3, 2021 by ThenNow

[yknot]

12 hours ago, David CO said:

That's where scouting went wrong.  Originally, the idea was that they would all be from the same CO.  They would already know each other.  They would have an established group identity and sense of common purpose.  They wouldn't be totally unrelated people.

Somewhere along the line BSA got away from that.  

I see what you are saying but in a lot of cases that model is also extremely problematic as we've seen from the cases in the Catholic church. The priest who was part of your family could also be dangerous, even though you thought you knew him well. When you look at where some of the "epidemics" of abuse occur, it's often in areas where perpetrators are able to hide behind a mantle of propriety and respect that their position infers -- scout leaders, priests, other religious figures, physicians, Big Brother/Big Sister, teachers, etc. Of all those positions, only scout leaders routinely get to take children away from parental supervision for long periods of time overnight in remote areas. I don't care who the CO is, it is probably always a fraught situation when you look at it that way.