Chapter 11 announced

[ThenNow]

14 minutes ago, MisterH said:

How did the BSA end up being forced to pay for both their own lawyers as well as their opponents' lawyers?

I can't cite to the statute or case law, but standard fare in these mass tort bankruptcies. BSA is not being singled out on this.

6 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

In the same comment, she said that "the victims need to be compensated appropriately and BSA's mission needs to continue."

Not going to pat myself on the back, but she even made note of individual letters she received about the importance of continuing Scouting for future generations, including from survivor claimants. She was clearly touched, moved and motivated by what she read. Guys, it's real...

Back me up on this, David? Can I get an "Amen"?

Edited March 17, 2021 by ThenNow

[SilverPalm]

Thank heavens for that.

[Eagle1993]

6 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Not going to pat myself on the back, but she even made note of individual letters she received about the importance of continuing Scouting for future generations, including from survivor claimants.

Its great to hear ... but at $10M/month, it feels like we will lose 3-5 local camps each month this trial goes on.  Hopefully the BSA & TCC lawyers finally sit in a room and don't leave until there is a settlement.  No food, no water, just sit.  Heck .. perhaps we can put them up at a camp site in one of our camps.  They have to make their own fires, cook for themselves and not leave the area until there is a deal. 

[ThenNow]

4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Hopefully the BSA & TCC lawyers finally sit in a room and don't leave until there is a settlement.  No food, no water, just sit.

She told them to "bring a toothbrush."

[ThenNow]

6 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

They have to make their own fires, cook for themselves and not leave the area until there is a deal. 

Oh, man. I REALLY want to see that: Lawyers' Survival Island. Please, Lord...

[ThenNow]

30 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

it feels like we will lose 3-5 local camps each month this trial goes on. 

This question is in the name of seeing everyone come to the table, not with any joy in the asking. Do you think other LCs will now follow suit with the CFL sale? I know it sucks, but it would make things a lot easier if reality spread quickly. Anyone else getting this kind of news?

Edited March 17, 2021 by ThenNow

[elitts]

On 3/16/2021 at 2:56 PM, MYCVAStory said:

As far as selling assets now, perhaps victims should feel good that now that would be an excellent idea for the LCs.  As long as it's done at fair market value (and remember, the TCC has its own appraisals that include a judgement as to whether those "deed restrictions" really exist) then it provides readily accessible cash for the settlement.  If not completed at FMV then action can be taken to unwind it.  The tide has shifted.  The TCC hired the best professionals that specialize in bankruptcy and is prepared. 

Except you are basically never going to get FAIR MARKET VALUE for most of the properties that get sold for this.  These are all specialty properties that would normally need upwards of 12-24 months (or more) of marketing time to find a buyer; but you can be sure the liquidation time-frame will be much shorter.  What you will get for these properties is usually going to be the FIRE SALE price.  In lay-mans terms: you're price has to be discounted to the point where someone with the cash would be enticed to buy a property that they weren't really in the market for in the first place, which usually means someone who is going to try and flip the property or break it up and re-sell it, and that usually requires a price reduction of at least 50%-60%, if not more.

So barring some of the camps that are located within 90 minutes of a major city, with enough infrastructure in place to be able to develop the property, (usually lakefront) what you are actually going to get for the property will be 20%-40% of the FAIR MARKET VALUE.

But personally, I think Summer Camp needs to be considered a core aspect of BSA Scouting and so a reasonable agreement should leave enough camps to accommodate all of the current (pre-Covid) Scouts.

Of course, if the LCs were being really creative, they would look into ways to trim out some of the really valuable parts of their camps to generate funds, while leaving themselves enough land to have a functional camp.  For example: If they own a mile of lakefront within the reservation, they could carve out 60% of that with easements for access and sell the frontage for high end vacation home sites (ecologically friendly ones).  It may not be ideal, but it would allow them to strip out a large portion of the value of the property without losing the majority of the usefulness.

[CynicalScouter]

33 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

She told them to "bring a toothbrush."

The ONLY time I've heard a judge say that was when it was a contempt proceeding, or the threat of one.

[Eagle1993]

9 minutes ago, elitts said:

Except you are basically never going to get FAIR MARKET VALUE for most of the properties that get sold for this.  These are all specialty properties that would normally need upwards of 12-24 months (or more) of marketing time to find a buyer; but you can be sure the liquidation time-frame will be much shorter.  What you will get for these properties is usually going to be the FIRE SALE price. 

In the CFL sale, my understanding is that they will list it at FMV.  If it doesn't sell, they will transfer ownership to the trust at FMV.  The trust can then sell the property at FMV in the future.

[ThenNow]

Just now, CynicalScouter said:

The ONLY time I've heard a judge say that was when it was a contempt proceeding, or the threat of one.

Starting with the Zoom feedback in her courtroom, an attorney who left his mic hot during the 5 minute recess, the stack of "paperwork" dumped on her desk at the last minute yesterday and all the finger pointing, she was not in a playful mood.

[elitts]

9 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

This question is in the name of seeing everyone come to the table, not with any joy in the asking. Do you think other LCs will now follow suit with the CFL sale? I know it sucks, but it would make things a lot easier if reality spread quickly. Anyone else getting this kind of news?

I doubt it.  I think before most LCs start down that road, there would need to be a determination that they are NOT independent and that they will be folded into the bankruptcy.  And frankly, even then, I'd like to see most of the camps (enough to service all the local scouts) retained as a "central part" of the Scouts BSA program.  For the most part, the land hosting most Summer Camps really isn't replaceable.  Recreation land anywhere near (within 90 minutes) a major city is already outside the price range of anyone looking to do an affordable camp.  So even if BSA 2.0 wanted to start over on developing camps, it's basically impossible at this point because assuming you could even find 100 acres of available land, the cost for it would be so high you could never afford the bank note required to pay for the land and new buildings at current rates without charging mind-blowing prices for a week of camp.

[Eagle1993]

10 minutes ago, elitts said:

Of course, if the LCs were being really creative, they would look into ways to trim out some of the really valuable parts of their camps to generate funds, while leaving themselves enough land to have a functional camp. 

To me, this makes a ton of sense.  I love private lake camps ... but if the balance is no camp or sharing a lake, I'd go for a shared lake.  Most of the time, scouts do not need the entire shoreline.  We need a waterfront to swim & and boat launch area.  I hope some councils consider this option as it could net a large portion of the camps value while still maintaining a local summer camp.

[CynicalScouter]

3 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Today I kind have that feeling of dread that a point of no return has come or will be coming soon.

I feel the same way. I don't see the sides coming to an agreement on a settlement fund number, which means BSA voluntarily liquidates OR faces sex abuse lawsuits for the next decade, effectively killing the program anyway.

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

I don't see the sides coming to an agreement on a settlement fund number

Setting aside my vested personal interest, I don't get this at all from a pure deal making standpoint. I know lip service to a two-part mutual goal doesn't equate to commitment, but a deal seems there to be made. 

[elitts]

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

In the CFL sale, my understanding is that they will list it at FMV.  If it doesn't sell, they will transfer ownership to the trust at FMV.  The trust can then sell the property at FMV in the future.

For a single property or even a few?  Sure, I suppose that might work.  But I doubt the trust wants to end up with a pile of deeds rather than a bag of cash.  I know if I was a claimant, I'd never accept a pile of real estate at Fair Market Value instead of currency because holding and liquidating the property isn't free.  There's taxes and assessments to pay, transfer fees, insurance costs, maintenance costs, and then of course transfer fees when it's sold for the trust.