Chapter 11 announced

[5thGenTexan]

BSA is not the place to not "Toe the Line"

National, Council, District, SOME people with certain color neckerchiefs.

Disagree and you might get ignored.  You might get the Scout Law thrown back at you for not being "Obedient"  You might occasionally get some traction.

 

Right now for instance, the BSA is like being on the Titanic.  Anything bankruptcy related, you get the line everything is fine and dandy, go back to the party, all the while the bow of the ship is rising out of the water and band plays on.

[MattR]

Many responses jammed into 1 post:

• If this thread suddenly becomes 5 pages shorter because I pulled all the YP sub topic out please don't be offended. It's just getting harder to figure out where the line is.
• That said, one aspect of YP is training the scouts. Whether leadership or First Aid, I've noticed that in the heat of the moment scouts are not prepared to deal with serious issues (an unconscious person or an angry scout refusing to help). There needs to be "muscle memory" to lean on when your brain is screaming WTF. So we did exercises that tried to recreate, with game playing, some of those emotions at a very low level. We talked explicitly about what would be going through one's head. The scouts said it helped. I'm just wondering if this wouldn't help scouts identify and recognize a bad situation. Related to this is improving trust between scouts and adults, or even scouts and older scouts. All in all, bring the subject of child abuse out and shine a bright light on it. As it becomes easier to talk about it will become easier for scouts to ask for help and thus reduce incidents.
• @ThenNow, in response to your question about recommendations, I'm not sure we know enough about this topic. What I see that prevents solving problems is that national does not have a good process for improving much of anything. I started a thread on this but not much came of it. My recommendation would be change the mindset to constant improvement. Zero is the goal but that's unattainable. Certainly it's a contradiction but as soon as national groks that, they will start improving.

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, MattR said:

@ThenNow, in response to your question about recommendations, I'm not sure we know enough about this topic. What I see that prevents solving problems is that national does not have a good process for improving much of anything. I started a thread on this but not much came of it. My recommendation would be change the mindset to constant improvement. Zero is the goal but that's unattainable. Certainly it's a contradiction but as soon as national groks that, they will start improving.

I appreciate that. I know my suggestion/question seemed directed at YPT bc it was the topic within which I posted it. Sorry. I also mean the desire to see National loosen its grip on HABs in favor of preserving local camps. I know that's not a universally held view here, but for me it's a point heard only on this forum. I know I am not "steeped in this," though. It sounds like you're weary of trying, perhaps. The way I am, I would be screaming at this point, even if into the wind. Sometimes it actually has good results. Others, I just get hoarse and my wife puts me in the basement with a heavy bag and a sedative.

[ThenNow]

24 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I am NOT going to see them come after me or my kids for speaking up. The risk is too great.

Anonymity in the press is allowed and not an impotent option. If you perceive it a dead horse, no use for you to whip it regardless your concern for your boys. I get that. I realize you're convinced of the collapse.

Edited March 15, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

I will stop with this. You guys know what's what.

[Eagle94-A1]

48 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Let me be blunt:

There's a reason I post anonymously. I have sons in the Scouts, BSA program. They'd like to make Eagle and I'd like to see that happen.

I am not about to give National, or my Council a SINGLE reason to threaten their advancement because their dad stuck his head up and spoke out about something.

THIS!

I once was on two council committees, and staffed council events. I questioned a few things. I am no longer active at the council level as a result. I am tolerated at the district level because I am one of the few people to do things at the local level. Also I have quieted down because I have two more sons on their trail to Eagle. 

 

EDITED:

National extremely rarely listens to the volunteers in the field. Best example is "InstaPalms." national took a poll on whether to instantly award Palms at the EBOR, and do away with the ledership requirement. 94% were either AGAINST (18%) or STRONGLY AGAINT (76%) awarding palms instantly and doing away with the leadership requirement.  Despite 94% saying it was a bad idea, they did it anyway. Another example is the surveys they did regarding membership changes. They have never released the membership survey results, only the non-member results, to support their decision. And looking at the GSUSA court documents, it appears the decision was already made before the polls.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Eagle94-A1

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Also I have quieted down because I have two more sons on their trail to Eagle. 

Yep. I'm willing to take whatever heat they want to drop on me. But you and I and a lot of us know how those Eagle BoRs suddenly can get stacked with unfriendly faces. Or how the Eagle paperwork, doesn't get outright shredded, but just never seems to get out from the bottom of the stack of papers.

Etc.

Edited March 15, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

8 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I questioned a few things. I am no longer active at the council level as a result. I am tolerated at the district level because I am one of the few people to do things at the local level. Also I have quieted down because I have two more sons on their trail to Eagle. 

I appreciate the personal example. For me, this better clarifies the situation that lead to and continues to tank the BSA. In that light, no one should be surprised Scouting is where it is. It changes my mind a bit. Systemic rot, like leadership ignoring and punishing the rank and file for speaking up, is nearly impossible to reform. The Plan now makes perfect sense.

Edited March 15, 2021 by ThenNow

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

There is always the risk of personal backlash, I guess, but is it worth it to lead and possibly see change enacted?

Yes, they have shot this messenger on several occasions.  I have too much scar tissue to engage again...happy to play in our little sandbox at the unit level...

[InquisitiveScouter]

55 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Let me be blunt:

There's a reason I post anonymously. I have sons in the Scouts, BSA program. They'd like to make Eagle and I'd like to see that happen.

I am not about to give National, or my Council a SINGLE reason to threaten their advancement because their dad stuck his head up and spoke out about something.

I believe BSA's likely dead. But in the off chance it isn't, I am NOT going to see them come after me or my kids for speaking up. The risk is too great.

Dear daughter and dear son both just earned Eagle...there is a bit of a weight lifted off the shoulders

[ThenNow]

22 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Dear daughter and dear son both just earned Eagle...there is a bit of a weight lifted off the shoulders

The hope I had for this working out where no one is "happy," but the outright weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth is avoided is fading. To me, that amounts to a successful negotiation. Intransigence on so much as one side is often the death knell. I think the image is coming into view. I still have some hope, however. It "springs eternal."

Edited March 15, 2021 by ThenNow
Typos

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Yeah, COs are supposed to "approve" adults.  I have taken new DL apps and or new committee member apps to our COR and he will sign it for me right there on the front porch of his house.   Other times the DE insists on signing adult apps.  I don't believe for a minute there is any "approval" that goes on aside from its a new number to put in the adult volunteer column.  

And its only taken me 4 years as a leader to get this cynical.   

If the COR signs it, then the CO is approving it.  If the COR is not doing their due diligence and exposes the CO to liability, then maybe the CO will do a better job at filling the COR position.  There's a parent who has apparently sexually harassed several mothers in a unit that is not rechartering due to a lack of volunteers.  We may be absorbing some of them and our committee chair flat out told me that this parent will not be allowed in our unit.  We don't want to expose our CO to the liability.

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

If the COR signs it, then the CO is approving it.  If the COR is not doing their due diligence and exposes the CO to liability, then maybe the CO will do a better job at filling the COR position.  There's a parent who has apparently sexually harassed several mothers in a unit that is not rechartering due to a lack of volunteers.  We may be absorbing some of them and our committee chair flat out told me that this parent will not be allowed in our unit.  We don't want to expose our CO to the liability.

Except there is a lack of oversight on the part of BSA because it has traditionally been more interested in money and members than consistent application of its policies. Many COs are legacy COs and have a dim understanding of what they are responsible for. We've talked about that a lot on this forum. Many COs think their only commitment is to provide meeting space and a few signatures and units are loathe to draw anything more to their attention. They have been afraid the CO will dump them if it realizes the full extent of its responsibilities and liabilities. It is a weak link in BSA's YPP that it has known about for decades but never addressed. 

 

[gpurlee]

We had a well known national consultant meet with our church leadership several years ago. He had worked with over 1,000 churches and had published over 40 books.  One of the programs he looked at was our legacy Scouting program which many members of the church had cited as one of the best programs of the church.  He challenged that notion by stating that, in his experience, most Scouting programs were only community groups housed by the church. His definition of church "ownership" of a true Scouting ministry was (1) church adults actively involved in the Scouting program on a regular basis, (2) the church including the Scouting program in its budget just like its youth group and (3) the involvement of youth connected with the church in the Scouting ministry. 

 

We have tried to "up our game" in recent years by more direct involvement between the Scouting programs and the church. Our DE said that our annual review of our Scouting programs using the JTE criteria was the only time that he had seen it done. Nevertheless, it is a challenge for an aging, mainline church that face many other challenges. The events of the past year are likely to result in churches and other sponsors either stepping up or stepping away, I suspect.

Edited March 15, 2021 by gpurlee

[CynicalScouter]

7 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

His definition of church "ownership" of a true Scouting ministry was (1) church adults actively involved in the Scouting program on a regular basis, (2) the church including the Scouting program in its budget just like its youth group and (3) the involvement of youth connected with the church in the Scouting ministry. 

LDS did this well, perhaps a little TOO well, where the distinction between the church and the unit was effectively non-existent.

That said, what is going to wake up, and has woken up, a lot of these religious/church chartered COs was the bankruptcy and lawsuits.

The entire Diocese of Dallas threw Scouting out of their parishes. If they are allowed back at all, it is as a room-and-facilities rental only.

Literally THOUSANDS of Methodist churches filed claims against BSA for fear they'd be stuck with abuse lawsuits/bills. That's in addition to a ton of local, individual churches that simply refused to recharter units.

"We thought we were just letting them use our space." Yeah, well, oops. That's not going to stop the abuse lawsuit. Your COR signed it, that means you are on the hook.

Edited March 15, 2021 by CynicalScouter