Chapter 11 announced

[ThenNow]

4 minutes ago, elitts said:

G2SS's requirement that pioneering structures be no taller than 5 feet

Time out.

No dodgeball and no pioneering structure taller than 5 feet? Oh, my. ThenNow is more apt than I ever imagined. 

Reengage on the whistle.

[yknot]

59 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Background checks against a database are run council via a paid company (or companies, I forget which I had in my head there were two). The council (or district, depending) is suppose to call references.

In my district, that's simply not done at all for years. Now, they want a volunteer district committee person to do it. Again, let me repeat that. An untrained, unpaid volunteer is now expected by BSA to start doing reference checks. My district hasn't had a DE in years, so this is their solution.

Tell me again how much BSA takes YP seriously?

I was going to say that part of improving YPT compliance would be reporting on how many checks were done and seeing the invoices on same. That's because I was once in a district that said it did checks, but didn't. They figured the mere fact of asking for approval to conduct a background check would suss out anyone with a problem, so why bother spending the money. I've heard rumors that practice continues in another council. 

However, if BSA is now delegating this to volunteer staff, maybe that council wasn't so out of line with BSA philosophies which, I agree, I don't think are all that focused on continuous quality improvement of YPP initiatives. 

 

[CynicalScouter]

16 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

No dodgeball and no pioneering structure taller than 5 feet?

6 foot max, per OSHA. Fall Protection Requirements According to OSHA Standards 29 CFR–Subpart M, 1926.500, 1926.501, 1926.502, and 1926.50

5 foot was a typo.

Quote

Note: Pioneering projects, such as monkey bridges, have a maximum height of 6 feet. Close supervision should be followed when Scouts are building or using pioneering project

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

6 foot max, that was a typo.

Whew. Gained a foot. The ones we always built were sky-scraping dinosaurs, I suppose.

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding a few things.

Regarding G2SS, they used Department of Labor Laws to create some of the rules, i.e. the no little red wagons, no power tools, etc at certain ages. I questioned that, brought it to my SE's attention, and he got clarification for me.

Regarding the  BSA's expulsion letters, I have read a few, had to enforce one, and sadly contribute to one.They are direct and to the point, membership revoked, and you are no longer allowed at BSA activities. Again I had to enforce that letter one time, only to find out the guy had a court ordered injunction against the expulsion until his civil trial against the BSA ended. Wish I was told about the injunction prior to phone calls being made.

As for being placed in the IVF and being innocent, you still won't be allowed back in the BSA, and even if they did allow you to continue,  your reputation is ruined. Good friend of mine was accused. They were promptly escorted off the camp, and police began an investigation. There was enough physical evidence left by the accuser to prove that her story was corrrect: she caught the "scout" being a peeping Tom after hours in the ladies shower area, and when she confronted him, he ran off. He accused her to save himself, and sadly it worked.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

I have been involved in my council since ~1990 and have been on the Executive Board since 1994.  

This is a problem, both at national and council.  There is no accountability for board members.  BSA is in bankruptcy.  The entire board should be retired and replaced.  The people who led BSA into bankruptcy should be held accountable.

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding G2SS, they used Department of Labor Laws to create some of the rules, i.e. the no little red wagons, no power tools, etc at certain ages.

Ok, that also makes sense given how often OSHA standards are cited.

[InquisitiveScouter]

There was a Scouter accused of murder.  Removed from Scouting.  Exonerated.  Not allowed back.  Much more to the story, but BSA will not allow him back.  He is Vigil Honor.

[InquisitiveScouter]

14 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Whew. Gained a foot. The ones we always built were sky-scraping dinosaurs, I suppose.

We build them higher than six feet, just don't have them climb higher than six without helmet, harness, and top rope belay IAW climbing rules.

[CynicalScouter]

34 minutes ago, David CO said:

This is a problem, both at national and council.  There is no accountability for board members.  BSA is in bankruptcy.  The entire board should be retired and replaced.  The people who led BSA into bankruptcy should be held accountable.

First, most of the damage done was for abuse done years/decades ago. Those board members are long since gone and/or dead.

Second, just looking at National, almost the entire board has changed since 2012.

Of the board members listed in National's 2012 IRS filing, almost NONE are in the 2019 filing.

So, what exactly is it you want done to the the board-members, MOST of whom just joined in the last 2-3 years and therefore inherited this mess.

Third, what exactly do you mean "held accountable"? Do you think they should be part of a civil suit? Bankruptcy? Criminally prosecuted?

EDIT: On second thought, I forgot who was posting this. Yes, you've said in the past you want all former BSA board members arrested and forced to pay billions.

Tempting as that may be it isn't going to happen. A key aspect of incorporation is that the owners, shareholders, or members (such as board members) of a corporation or LLC can NOT be held personally liable for corporate debts.

Yes, there are exceptions that allow a court to "pierce the corporate veil", but they are few and far between. Not even Kosnoff in his press to liquidate BSA has suggested making any board member, current or prior, personally liable for BSA's debts.

I know you hate BSA and wish that they would leave your diocese and other Roman Catholics alone (again, no one is MAKING you participate in scouting, FYI), but you hate doesn't translate into an actionable civil claim.

Edited March 15, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[5thGenTexan]

3 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I see this is the real issue.  Scouting isn't some large corporation where every adult involved is an employee of the national head quarters.  It has more in common with a guerilla army than the US Army.  I don't know how one can reasonably hold the national office responsible for the actions of volunteers, especially in the pre-internet days.  COs approve adult membership.  National's role would be in checking records to see if an applicant has been reported as an offender, but beyond that, I don't buy responsibility.  This is truly a case where the primary responsibility is at the lowest level.  I realize there is more money at the top and it's far easier to sue a single entity than it is to go after a thousand individual organizations, especially when they may no longer exist.   I don't think there will ever be enough money to compensate the victims.  How do you put a dollar figure on a life altering injury?  I certainly know that a paltry amount of money from insurance (my insurance company, no less) for a drunk driver destroying my foot will not fix it.  I'd rather the perpetrator be permanently removed from society so he can't hurt anyone else, and that the rules be changed to prevent it from occurring again.  To me, that harms the least number of innocents as possible.  

Yeah, COs are supposed to "approve" adults.  I have taken new DL apps and or new committee member apps to our COR and he will sign it for me right there on the front porch of his house.   Other times the DE insists on signing adult apps.  I don't believe for a minute there is any "approval" that goes on aside from its a new number to put in the adult volunteer column.  

And its only taken me 4 years as a leader to get this cynical.   

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

I want to know my Council is DEMONSTRABLY taking YPT seriously. Ditto, and especially, National.

Has anyone (any of you) put together a list of recommendations that could be forwarded those responsible for monitoring, overseeing and enforcing YPT? Again, I'm a survivor and, assuming Scouting continues, if there are solid actionable recommendations I would appreciate it if someone would trumpet and champion them. I realize many of you said National doesn't listen to you, but are there other approaches? Joint letters, petitions and/or communication with the press? There is always the risk of personal backlash, I guess, but is it worth it to lead and possibly see change enacted? If the BSA has nothing to say on this issue in the Plan, it's a strike against getting the TCC endorsement. One strike out of three possible - money, YPT reform and the release of names. I'll stop asking about this, but as an action-oriented troublemaker, it makes me itchy and twitchy to witness what looks like inaction in the face of good ideas and possible fixes. I don't know what has been tried, so I am admittedly in an info vacuum.

[CynicalScouter]

18 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Has anyone (any of you) put together a list of recommendations that could be forwarded those responsible for monitoring, overseeing and enforcing YPT?

Not worth the effort. National does what National wants.

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

Not worth the effort. National does what National wants.

No windmill tilters, smooth stone slingers or boat brass polishers? 

[CynicalScouter]

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

No windmill tilters, smooth stone slingers or boat brass polishers? 

Let me be blunt:

There's a reason I post anonymously. I have sons in the Scouts, BSA program. They'd like to make Eagle and I'd like to see that happen.

I am not about to give National, or my Council a SINGLE reason to threaten their advancement because their dad stuck his head up and spoke out about something.

I believe BSA's likely dead. But in the off chance it isn't, I am NOT going to see them come after me or my kids for speaking up. The risk is too great.

Edited March 15, 2021 by CynicalScouter