ThenNow Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: Right. There's already plans to sue not only Local Councils but Chartered Organizations as well. Such suits are being filed but the bankruptcy court proceeding stays those suits for now. On the pad for July 20, in the event it's not completed by then. 8 minutes ago, MattR said: It starts by looking very closely at every one of those 11,000 cases and start looking for commonalities as to how the barriers were avoided. Pick the low hanging fruit and work on that first. It's not a lot different than how Toyota became so good at quality. I've been waiting for someone to say this. (Don't send me into exile, since we're kinda talking about a verboten topic again, no? Since I'm replying to MattR, I think I'm in the cone of silence.) Theory is great. Practice unto perfection is amazing, if it can be achieved. Reverse engineering and recreating breakdowns is the key. Who, what, where, when, why and how under a giant beam of light and a powerful microscope is best. I think things will leap off the page, if you will do it. Critical system failure analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, MattR said: That's about one sexual abuse per day. Given that the G2SS won't even let scouts use electric screwdrivers it's hard for me to see how one sexual abuse per day is acceptable. That and keep in mind that the numbers may also have collapsed not because YPT is amazing but because the BSA membership fell off a cliff at around the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterH Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 23 minutes ago, ThenNow said: Wild shot at rank and yank: Lawyers, National, Abuse Victims, Councils, CO's. I think that's a good guess. The further down the chain the lawyers go, the more blame they'll get. Going after BSA national is one thing, but going after Prince of Peace Lutheran PTO for an abuse case that happened before the current pack leadership was even born will leave a very bad taste in everyone's mouth. From my perspective, having the most visible lawyer for the abuse victims rant "Burn it all down!" repeatedly on Twitter and in the media is not a good look. To a relative outsider like me, it looks as if the other side is negotiating in bad faith, given his stated end goal is not just money for the victims, but the death penalty for the BSA. In Kosnoff's ideal world, BSA national, all councils, all cub scout packs, troops, sea scout ships, and venturing crews flat-out cease to exist at the end of this lawsuit. I'm not sure the general populace is aware that the stakes are that high, and I doubt many parents with kids in scouting would approve of completely wiping out the organization their kids belong to as justice in this case. Maybe I'm wrong, however. I often am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, skeptic said: Yes, even one is too many, but we live in a real world. Please explain to me how are we ever going to make that number zero? How responsible is the secondary overseer when the actual perpetrator purposely avoids the barriers? I think we have to assume that perpetrators will purposely avoid the barriers. That's a given. The real difficulty comes when it is the victim who purposely avoids the barriers. To some extent, we need to treat child sexual abuse prevention in much the same way as we do suicide prevention. We can't expect the victims to always cooperate. We have to act in the victims best interest, whether they choose to cooperate or not. Edited March 12, 2021 by David CO 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thGenTexan Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, MisterH said: I think that's a good guess. The further down the chain the lawyers go, the more blame they'll get. Going after BSA national is one thing, but going after Prince of Peace Lutheran PTO for an abuse case that happened before the current pack leadership was even born will leave a very bad taste in everyone's mouth. From my perspective, having the most visible lawyer for the abuse victims rant "Burn it all down!" repeatedly on Twitter and in the media is not a good look. To a relative outsider like me, it looks as if the other side is negotiating in bad faith, given his stated end goal is not just money for the victims, but the death penalty for the BSA. In Kosnoff's ideal world, BSA national, all councils, all cub scout packs, troops, sea scout ships, and venturing crews flat-out cease to exist at the end of this lawsuit. I'm not sure the general populace is aware that the stakes are that high, and I doubt many parents with kids in scouting would approve of completely wiping out the organization their kids belong to as justice in this case. Maybe I'm wrong, however. I often am. The general populace, at least the ones that respond to news stories on local news sites want nothing to do with the BSA ever. "Its a haven for pedophiles" "They are just as bad as the Catholic Priests" "I would never let me kid alone with those people" Then you have the comments about allowing girls to join. I don't think the opinion of Scouting in the general population is as positive as those in the various programs. When news stories start hitting that there are thousands of claims of abuse after YPT began in the past 20 -30 years. Well.. it will darn near impossible to put lipstick on that pig. ETA.... as a CM, I am not sure how I respond to a parent who brings up this new statistic. In the past I have felt confident explaining YPT to new parents. Now, I am not sure I can assure them of anything. Really, IMO, its a pretty damning number. Edited March 12, 2021 by 5thGenTexan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thGenTexan Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I have a request. Can we get some sort of facts of where things now stand, without opinion of what might happen. I would like something to help take to my committee for those that have been paying zero attention. I know at some point National had a tough time when they would be out of cash to stay running. Does that date still exist? I have seen July 20.... what is the significance there? On the what if side... IF National (personally I think its just when). Does that mean program is gone. Advancement is gone. Scoutbook is gone. Everything is pretty much gone. Of course there are still leaders with knowledge to guide. But pretty much from a resource standpoint everything will be gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said: I have a request. Can we get some sort of facts of where things now stand, without opinion of what might happen. I would like something to help take to my committee for those that have been paying zero attention. I know at some point National had a tough time when they would be out of cash to stay running. Does that date still exist? I have seen July 20.... what is the significance there? On the what if side... IF National (personally I think its just when). Does that mean program is gone. Advancement is gone. Scoutbook is gone. Everything is pretty much gone. Of course there are still leaders with knowledge to guide. But pretty much from a resource standpoint everything will be gone? First, keep in mind that National has said absolutely nothing officially so EVERYTHING here amounts to "I heard from Council that" or "My buddy on the board heard." That's part of the problem here: National's hiding the ball. As for cash, National has said in filings it will run out of money "by late summer". Here's why July 20 is important. It is the absolutely earliest BSA can emerge from bankruptcy IF EVERYTHING WORKS EXACTLY AS BSA WANTS. Look at this video from the TCC at minute 42:33. Again, that's if 1) NO ONE objects to the BSA plan and 2) NO ONE argues at the April 15 hearing against the plan and 3) AT LEAST 66% of abuse claimants approve the plan by June 28 and 4) THE JUDGE CONFIRMS the final plan around July 20-26. There is precisely 0% chance of all 4 of these things happening. In fact, #1 and #2 are already off the table. Finally, what happens? Yes, program is gone. Advancement is gone. Scoutbook is gone. Everything is pretty much gone. And since Congress gave the (by this point dead) BSA exclusive rights to the names and logo associated with Scouting, you cannot go start your own program and start making your own Eagle Scouts. THAT is why my troop parents were notified today we are racing for July 1 to get our Life Scouts to Eagle. We don't expect BSA to be alive much past that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: THAT is why my troop parents were notified today we are racing for July 1 to get our Life Scouts to Eagle. We don't expect BSA to be alive much past that point. Also explains why the first class of female Eagles were in a sprint to the finish line. May not be another class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said: I have a request We don't know. I used to buy cars by walking away from the dealer. If they know you can walk away then you have leverage on the final price. The bsa put out an initial offer and the TCC started walking out the door. That's all we know for now. I wouldn't start pushing scouts to get eagle or selling your gear. Besides, I think the eagle brand is taking a huge hit - what's it going to be worth if you're afraid to bring it up? Keep working on what you have control over. Teach scouts the Law and Oath. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, MattR said: I wouldn't start pushing scouts to get eagle or selling your gear. I tend to agree. That said, go to summer camp. Go to Philmont, if you can, this summer. Enjoy it now as there is no guarantee they will be there next summer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armymutt Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 8 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said: Looking at the documents provided last night, Circle 10 has 504 claims. The AIS map thing doesnt even come close to reflecting those numbers, so I kind of wonder about its accuracy. I noticed that too. I was in a troop with a known abuser - I've seen the police report and the newspaper story. Troop 510 in Okaw Valley Council, just east of St. Louis, Don White. That case does not show up on the tracker. Interestingly, my old troop does, which is really odd. It had the same SM since around '44 until '11 and I haven't heard any reports from guys who have been associated with that troop since '55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Armymutt said: That case does not show up on the tracker. Because the AIS tracker is only tracking cases that use AIS lawyers. It is NOT intended to be 100% comprehensive of ALL abuse cases. Edited March 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said: Because the AIS tracker is only tracking cases that use AIS lawyers. It is NOT intended to be 100% comprehensive of ALL abuse cases. Sorry I posted that. It’s just created more confusion and anxiety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thGenTexan Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, ThenNow said: Sorry I posted that. It’s just created more confusion and anxiety. No. Its cool. Just didnt realize it was just for one law firm and not the entire list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjohns2 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Armymutt said: It had the same SM since around '44 until '11 Wait, it had the same Scoutmaster for 67 years? Was it like, 87? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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